Win Now Vs. Developing Rookies

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by anakin, Feb 25, 2006.

  1. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    To start off, I am a full believer in the WIN NOW mentality. I sometimes question the effect of having a starting five as good the Pistons and the WIN NOW approach has on rookies sitting on the bench. This Pistons team will continue to be very good for the next couple of years so how do the Acker's, Maxiell's and Johnson's of the world get a chance to develop. Practice is fine but their hard work needs to be rewarded with playing time to work through mistakes and develop their skils.

    Are the starting five over empahsized to the detriment of young talent?

    Isn't their a happy medium somewhere or can the Pistons only "afford" to play rookies of the caliber of Wade or Bosh i.e. ready for prime time?
     
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    I have been thinking about that all season.

    Historically other teams have done it like the Lakers with Kobe and the Spurs with Parker. With the Pistons there are no openings. We had one upfront in 04 but Dumars sealed it by signing Dyess.

    If we had drafted Wade or Melo would they have beaten out one of the starters? If never given more than 15 MPG could they have beaten out one of our starters? If we drafted Bosh would Dumars have still signed Dyess?

    You have to have some opening a rookie can use and take a chance on him. We do have some opening on the bench from time to time. Dumars left one open for Delfino last season. Unfortunate that he was injured because that also put us in a spot. This seaon Mo Evans is sort of an insurance policy and it looks like Delfino is comming along.

    The other rooks? The only guy with a chance now is Acker. Maxiel - Forget it. Unless Dumars is willing to take a chance on him as the 3rd big next season and not sign anyone else. Here his height can be an issue. Amir Johnson will be fine since he can wait a few seasons.
     
  3. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    When on a championship hunt, WIN NOW rules! That window don't stay open that long. Any rookie that breaks into the rotation is gravy.

    The object of "developing rookies" is to win down the road. On a legit championship contender, rookies are best used to carry luggage, run errands, and compete in practice. They make too many rookie mistakes.

    The best thing about rookies is that they grow up to be 2nd year players. That's when they should be able to contribute.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The reasons why this team isn't simultaneously developing a young player or two are

    1. Joe has done a lousy job bringing in young talent (not Darko specific)
    2. Joe has done a great job adding veteran talent
    3. The team is at a level that allows for few mistakes
    Realistically, you have to look at the Pistons objectively and wonder if the potential payoff is worth the relative risk. Because there is not such thing as a rookie or sophmore player whose game is all upside, all of the time. There is always a risk of a mistake, and in today's low scoring NBA, are you gunna risk a crucial turnover, bad foul, clock management brain cramp?

    I don't think so.
     
  5. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    No surprise, put me down on the side that says they are not mutually exclusive.

    I believe that there is no way to keep the team playing at a high level year after year, except by introducing new blood into it. Developing a player for 10 minutes a game does not mean you lose that game. And you can train and work with a player at practice but he does not validate what he is learning unless he gets to use it in game situations, meaning players who are not on his own team.

    Also, the rookie who does not get this attention goes into his second year still a rookie. He does not magically develop into a second year player who can help you. Same after the second year and on and on.

    And winning championships on other people's hard work is not what young players need. They need to earn their own championships. A player who gets his rewards too early loses some of his initiative.

    At least, that is the way I see it.
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    All this talk about development. I know its because we threw away a #2 pick. Depends on your thoughts of Darko as to when it was thrown away on draft night or last week.

    Looking at our roster we only have 2 rookies that we developed Prince and Delfino. Anyone see the Irony in this? Did we develope Sheed, Ben, Dyess? Ben was already about to break out when he came here. Same can be said of C-note and Rip.

    If we snag someone like Bosh in 07 its going to fast forward over all that development time.
     
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Teams like the Clippers have been developing for quite some time... :eyebrows:

    It wasn't until recently when the Clips decided to spend some money in free agency did they begin to see the light at the end of tunnel.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    The Bulls are another example with all those high picks they have had.
     
  9. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'm surprized at the lack of faith coaches and GMs have in NBA rookies. Football is diff.
    As for our situation, playing the bench as a unit seems perfect. Why ruin the starters unit? Or can't they play all 48 minutes and still blow the doors the off the comp?
    They do need help. But just a rest. I'm wondering if our team has been very greedy with their PT. And why have the coaches bought into it?
     
  10. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    the young guys will have a chance, but there is no starting spot that has a weakness which won't allow as many chances. i think we should put these guys in the d-league. is there a reason why we won't do that?
     
  11. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    this is really an interesting concept.

    When you are signing your starting 5 to large contract extensions are you merely developing your youth to become valuable members to the team "off the bench"? If a player does develop into something special, aren't you just grooming that player for the next team that has a pressing need? It seems to me that unless there is a postition that could stand strengthning in 3 to 4 years or less, chances are that any promising player is destined to leave for a payday. The thought of grooming a group of young players to become the next generation for a club appears to be a concept that has loss its viability since free agency became more of the norm. It will be interesting to see how Joe manages the changing of the guard from the "Going to Work" era to a new generation of players. Joe's task is particularly challenging because he won't have to just replace pieces, but an entire starting 5...(with the exception of perhaps Tay) In the past 20 years I have not really seen any franchise make that change smoothly without any drop off. There is always a bit of a stutter along the way. LA faltered. Detroit faltered. Chicago faltered. Houston faltered. Utah faltered.

    The days of decades of domination appears to have died with the Celtics vs Lakers rivalries of the past.
     
  12. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'm not buying Roscoes and the GMs stance that we don't have room for mistakes. If you want a guy with potential to be a future member of your team you let him get involved. One game work a PG next game maybe PF, 5 minutes of real game action not 2 min. of GT. Especially if your starters can erase most mistakes.
    DARKO HIJACKING
     
  13. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree 100%. Why can't we have both?

    Sure winning now is the ultimate goal, but we also have to have an eye for the future.

    Is giving guys like Acker, Maxiell, Delfino and (most importantly at the time) Darko a few minutes a game really going to ruin the season for us????? I'm not talking giving them starters minutes, just more than none.

    I think it would actually help us.

    1. It would give the starters a few extra minutes of rest
    2. We would be able to find out what we have on the bench BEFORE the playoffs
    3. Flip might actually gain some confidence in the bench
    4. We could actually USE the bench IN the playoffs, now that they have some experience
    5. We'll be that much better next year, when our bench has played in some actual games, instead of Red Shirting for 3 years. I totally agree that years in the NBA should only count if you actually PLAY in the NBA. A rookie this year is still a rookie in year 2, 3, 4 if he hasn't actually played. Sure he'll gain some added experience in practice and watching from the bench. But there's no substitute for game action.

    Joe himself said recently, why bother getting a backup PG, if Billups gets injured we're done anyway.

    WHAT?!?!? I'm surprised more people haven't commented on this statement. Where's the faith? Not exactly glass half full thinking. So our entire season rides on crossing our fingers that CB doesn't get injured?

    Injuries are a part of the game. Just ask any other team but ours. Look at what the Pacers have had to overcome the past few years. They've played without one of the best players in the league, Artest, for most of 2 seasons. They've had Tinsley and J.O. out for extended time as well as several other key players off and on. They've still found a way to win.

    So instead of developing his players and adding depth, Joe has decided to play the starters until they drop and hope to hell no one gets hurt?!?!? Not my favourite strategy.

    Obviously CB is a HUGE part of our team, but I thought the point of not having any superstars, and having a TEAM was that we weren't relying on 1 guy to carry the load for us?

    Could we still have won a championship if CB went down and Arroyo and Hunter shared his minutes? I think absolutely! But now, we'll have to sit back and cross our fingers.
     
  14. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    WoW, Jam, between this thread and the Darko Arrives thread you just contradicted yourself. Here you say, blend/work in future talent. But you expected Darko to sit on the bench happy. But he didn't need 20 min. did he? 5
    Our team set a bad precedent.
     
  15. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I don't think I did at all. I'm not saying Darko had to be happy about being stuck on the bench. I'm saying he should have done more to force their hand when he was given minutes - which wasn't many, and was usually in garbage time. Play with some emotion, play with high energy, look like you actually give a crap. EARN more minutes. Don't just cry about not getting them.

    I'm not saying play your bench just for the heck of it. They have to earn their minutes (garbage time excluded). But Darko had too many DNP's that didn't even give him the chance to impress them.

    Basically, I'm saying that a player should at least be given a few garbage minutes when you're up by 20 with only a few minutes left. That's on the organization to do. Give the player an opportunity.

    Then its up to the player to build on those minutes with his play. If he does well, reward him with a few more minutes. If he doesn't, he sticks with garbage minutes until he can earn more.

    Not playing Darko, or the rest of the bench, in garbage time hurts the TEAM. Because the starters have to carry even more of the load. It risks burning them out and more importantly, injury, when the game has already been decided.
     
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's not how the Bad Boys worked. Joe got the Blueprint from Daddy Rich and Jack the Trader.

    If you want to win a championship, you don't take unnecessary risks.

    There is a reason why bottom feeder teams draft first and play their rooks alot. They aren't trying to WIN NOW.

    I realize that the team is so good, all we can do is nitpick the backup PG, the wasted #2 pick, Mo Evans. There is no good drama. But geez louise, put it all in perspective. Dale Davis just had an excellent game today. A guy who gets a friendly whistle now and again, a guy who all of the KEY players respect on the court.

    That's why he's here. That's why Mo is here, and most importantly that is why Lindsey is here.

    We got young guys. Rip, and Tay are just coming into their prime. Chauncey is not even 30 yet. But you don't play the clueless guys who still don't know where to go on the court, and who don't bring their best effort. Now you're compromising the mission. Like stopping to cross-train in the middle of a marathon.
     
  17. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    This is an excellent point... development does not necessarily translate into more W's down the road... often the "developing team" is nothing more than a farm system for someone else.... as a matter of fact developing rookies can
    A) Get your coach & GM fired
    B) Cause you to stay in the lotto longer and lose potential FA's

    Of course if the young player takes the Brahma by the horns and beats out a veteran that's the right kind of development (see Tayshaun).
    If you're a playoff team you simply play the guys that give you the best chance to win... and 5 minutes here and there for a deserving rook shouldn't be too painful.
     
  18. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I don't think of it as nitpicking. I think of it as a HUGE opportunity lost. How often does one of the top teams in the league get the #2 overall pick? My guess is not very often.

    True Rip and CB are still young, but Sheed, Dice and Ben are all in their early 30s. Not old by any stretch, but definately an opportunity missed to solidify a Big for the next decade. As great as Wade and Melo have turned out, Darko (had he worked out) or Bosh were the guys that would have ensured this team was tops in the East for a long time to come.

    That's not to say that the Pistons still won't be, but its a lot cheaper to draft and develop your own guys than it is to rely on trades and FA's to fill out your roster. Tashaun is our only home grown contributor right now. Hopefully Delfino and at least one of Acker, Johnson and Maxiell will join him in the long run.
     
  19. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The Pistons have turned into a development team/ bad draft choices team as well lately. Memo, Darko, White, Cleaves. The only one that has worked out is Prince (so far).
     
  20. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Well at least we got a championship out of Memo. :)

    We need to just face the fact that when you have a solid 6 as we do, all other parts become replaceable over time. See the Chicago and San Antonio teams. At the time we didn't have a Sheed' so Darko made sense. With a Sheed, if I'm Detroit I probably trade that pick for an established player that can contribute to the bench immediately for the next couple of years. The #2 pick we got probably came about 4 to 5 years to soon for us to truely take advantage of it with our current roster of players.

    Perhaps our biggest mistake is having all of our players around the same age range. The daunting task Joe will have is determining which players to move for youth and still challenge for a championship before we reach a point where all of our starters' skills are deteriorating. That's a position I'm sure he is not in any rush to get to.
     

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