Will the Pistons' rebounding improve without Ben?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TaS, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I was wondering how Ben and his rebounding affected the other players on the team. In other words, were players depending on Ben to rebound for them? Was Ben hogging rebounds that other players could have grabbed? The real reason that I am asking is to try to predict how his absence and Nazr's arrival will affect our team rebounding. Common sense would say that losing one of the best rebounders in the league will hurt the team, but it seems like the stats show the opposite.

    Let's look at Team Rebounding % +/- with Ben and Nazr "on" and "off" the court.

    Ben (Pistons team):
    Offensive rebounds, 30.2% on/ 32.2% off/ -2.0% diff
    Defensive rebounds, 68.6% on/ 71.3% off/ -2.7% diff
    Total rebounding, 49.4% on/ 51.7% off/ -2.3% diff

    So, the Pistons were relatively better at getting offensive and defensive rebounds with Ben on the bench. Not only that, but the other team outrebounded the Pistons by 2.3% when he was playing.

    Nazr (Spurs team):
    Offensive rebounds, 30.7% on/ 26.6% off/ +4.1% diff
    Defensive rebounds, 71.0% on/ 72.3% off/ -1.3% diff
    Total rebounding, 50.9% on/ 49.5% off/ +1.4% diff

    Explanations for this surpising result could include 1) Ben was just hogging Pistons team rebounds, 2) other players were lazy and letting him do all the work when he was in, or 3) Ben was causing missed shots by leaving his position and was therefor hurting our rebounding, but making up for it with help defense. It may be a combination of all of those.

    Garnett and Dwight Howard's teams suffered on the rebounding front when they were off the court.

    Obviously, we will be able to see how it goes, but after looking at the stats, I am more confident that the Pistons can become a better rebounding team without Ben.
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Wow. That was really on target.
  4. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I'm kinda thinking that our rebounding may not be a factor of Ben Wallace but instead by Sheed and Delfino and Murray. On the defensive end we allowed a lot of penetration. That made Sheed and Ben rotate and sometimes thier man cleaned up the glass at our expense. One the offensive side, we shot a lot of jumpers and ben got boxed out a lot and usually was the only guy down there for a board.

    So if sheed plays the post he's more in position. If delfino and flip M penetrate and make defenses adjust, NAz should be able to clean up. Also Delf and Murray may be able to deter (not stop necessarily) guard penetration and with a zone, force other teams to shoot jumpers against us.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Zones are supposed to make teams succeptible to giving up offensive boards.

    Also, if Sheed was on the perimeter, then so was his defender. It is hard to know how that changed things.
  6. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Possibly. The team took Ben's rebounding for granted. This season every Piston should jump for the rebound. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens. The team also didn't play the best defense they could because they took Ben for granted there as well. I would be surprised if the overall defense gets better, but it's could very likely happen.
  7. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I thought that we were one of the worst offensive/defensive teams in rebounding last season?

    What caused this?

    I guess that our rebounding can only get better. I think that Ben's stats in rebounding reflected in individual accomplishment rather than a team effort? (listed as #2 rebounder in the league).
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We shot a higher FG%. Our opponents shot a higher FG%. Less rebounds to grab.

    Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that the rest of the starters don't hustle for rebounds, that was probably true last season.
  9. DirtyMoney

    DirtyMoney First Round Draft Pick

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    the team will play alot better. The will feel like they have no choice. tHEY ARE SAYING THAT ANYTHING LESS THAN A RING IS A TOTAL SEASON LOSS. That should equate to everyone learning from what happened last year, from defending the paint to making a defensive effort as important to the team as it was to Ben Wallace. Between Tay, Rasheed, Nazr, Delfino and Dice there should be an overall rebounding improvement.
  10. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yeah, but that's like saying they learned from the 2005 finals and as far as their defensive intensity went, they got worse the next year. You cannot trust these guys to learn a lesson and come back harder the next year...they've already proven they can't/won't do it.
  11. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Rebounding will drop because Ben didn't just get boards, he created them by altering a ton of shots, causing misses.

    However, I think our backup 2/3 combo of Flip and Delfino will grab a lot more boards than the backup combo of Delk/Evans, Hunter/Delk, Hunter/Evans.

    Also, if Dice plays more minutes, his boards should go up, helping to ease Big Ben's loss.
  12. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    ``That should equate to everyone learning from what happened last year''

    They didn't learn lessons from 04 or 05, so what reason is there to presume they'll learn lessons from 06? Chauncey's already blown the whole thing off as just tired legs, and Flip thinks it's just that they got cold and played well in all but one game.
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Kind of. In 04-05 the Pistons always never put their foot on the opponents throat when they had a chance. We saw that the next season they did that, but after winning so many games human nature kicked in and the Pistons thought everything would be handed to them. Thats when they got smoked. This season they know they have to work their butts off for wins now, and they will. Hopefully the Pistons won't win so much to blind themselves again because if they do they actually won't learn their lesson. I wouldn't say they can't learn a lesson Low. They can, but many of the players along with the fans will be blinded by false success.

    Please don't tell me that without Ben, and with Flip these are fluke wins though. This team may not be the best defensive team, but this team has the right personel to be a great zone team. If it works out this team may not be able to shut down and make records on opponents, but they won't make anything easy for the opponent.

    As far as Flip we've got 2 coaches who have played the game and know what they're talking about. So if they feel that something about the way the team is playing is wrong they'll try to fix it.

    Low I think if you look very closely you might see their is some hope. Last year every player took everything for granted. Every player should be on the same page this year. Just like when the Lakers faced The Pistons talent will not always beat commitment. Ben thought Flip's sytem was flawed and he didn't play his best. Every player took Ben's defense for granted and the team didn't play good D. The offesne was exposed in the playoffs. After one thing went wrong everything fell apart. Last years team may have been more talented, but this years team knows they have to work harder and everyone will try to be at their best.

    I never would of thought I would of said that a year ago. I wouldn't be able to believe that the great group of Pistons let ego get in their way. This team never blamed any individual, but if they lost they believed the team lost and all of them had to work together to fix. Sadly that didn't happen.

    I'm not saying The Pistons are great again yet, but down't think they will lose right away. We still have Joe D. as the leader.
  14. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    I'm not ripping on you Low. None of us should because you were the one member who was right about this team last season. Ben left and it definantly seems like this team is going backwards rather than forward.

    I think the coaching was a big problem: This season we have a 3 headed monster leading this team. Last season there was no bench, but this season there will be a 8-9 man rotation. Last season players didn't play their best defense, or they didn't crash the boards because they thought Ben would clean it all up. This season everyone should put an A effort into defense. Offesne no more hacks and double teams as often.

    Right away a person thinks the defense will be worse, but in the playoffs no one besides Ben played hard on D so it kind of takes away from having a DPOY candidate on your team.
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    lee 356 was right too. he said the pistons wouldn't beat miami without darko.

    not everybody sees ben leaving as going backwards. i see it as a definite plus. no more cancer.

    yes. coaching was the problem last year. but flip was coaching without power to deal with ben because the pistons were trying to sign him in an unrestricted free agency year. flips best move last year would have been to sit ben down and he couldn't do that. last season there was a bench at the start of the season. we had arroyo, darko, delfino, mcdyess, davis that lineup could have beat a lot of bottom teams starting lineups. you can say though that we didn't use our bench. but ben sent 2 of the best players off of our bench packing.

    ben may have played hard on D but he wasn't effective. what's playing hard good for if it isn't working?? our D won't be worse it wasn't that bad last year. we played good enough Defense to win.
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't think you're ripping on me by any means. I agree with you on some points. My main issue is just that everyone said last year that these guys would be more focused and ready to work hard in order ot prove they should have won the Finals AND that they didn't necessarily need LB. However, that focus and desire went out the window with the defense. I just see a pattern forming where as long as they are confident about themselves while losing and have an easy reason/excuse to point at. They will continue to lose because they'll stay complacent and won't focus on the things (i.e. tough defense) that actually made them contentders.

    That's where my axe is also with Flip. He has shown time and again that he'd rather take the passive way out than to really try to force a tough defense and deal head on with his shortcomings. He'd rather just try to score more points and hide his obviously poor defensive scheme.
  17. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    I vote for this direction.
  18. max

    max All-Star

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    Some of the positives are guys like Jason Maxiel are going to get a chance to play. He has been having a great post-season so far.

    At least its getting us away from that exclusive 3-guy set up front. But a lot of guys are going to have to step up to help make some of the difference.
  19. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Works for me.
  20. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Gotta get this off the chest... If someone only has negative thoughts about the current team maybe they might want to try a new hobby... tiddlywinks... shuffleboard or something to keep their mind off the possibility that the Pistons won't live up to previous expectations....but there's no reason to drag other folks down to a level they don't want to be... maybe they won't be champs again... maybe just a 48 win team... but some of us would like to still like to have hope for the team we grew up with (1965 and counting).

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