What was the true downfall of the Pistons? Comparing the Pistons to the Spurs.

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Winless Wonders, May 6, 2012.

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What is the primary reason for the Pistons downfall?

  1. The greed of Ben Wallace

    17.4%
  2. The trade of Chauncey

    8.7%
  3. GM making poor decisions

    82.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    The Spurs got Tim Duncan, one of the most solid pieces in NBA history to build a team around. Add a great draft strategy and Pop and success is hard to avoid. Their team was built around 2-3 players who contributed heavily with alot of interchangeable players around them. The Pistons had 5+ players all contributing alot who fit very well together. Because of the synergy effects those players weren't interchangeable at all and it's harder to keep 5 players than 3. It also seems like the Spurs had more of a red line in everything they did. However, I'm pretty sure things would have looked alot different if they would have got Van Horn instead of Duncan.
  2. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    A lot of good points and dialogue in this thread.

    I have seen several posts about the Spurs having Tim Duncan to build around and that you really can't compare the Pistons and Spurs. Well when you think about it the Pistons had the same opportunity with that #2 pick. The Spurs got it right with selecting Duncan while the Pistons screwed it up and took Darko. We would not be having this conversation if the Pistons took Carmelo, D-Wade or even if they took Bosh with that #2 pick.

    As far as the blame on the ownership with spending money goes Mr D.did go into the luxury tax to get Sheed in 2004 and he did buy out Carlile's remaining years on his contract and paid LB 5 mill a season which was double what Carlile was making per year. He then bought out LB and brought in Flip. I think they had like 3 coaches on the payroll at one time. I think money was spent it just was not spent in the areas we wanted or on the players we thought it should have been. A lot of average bench players with limited skills were brought here and over paid. As someone stated in a previous post I think a strong business case needed to be made to ownership to add payroll and pay the luxury tax. If I was a owner and had 3 coaches I was paying and their staffs I wouldn't want to pay luxury tax either. I would really have to be persuaded that the player was worth it.
  3. Nemo

    Nemo The Great Predictor Forum Donor

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    Bill Davidson..........

    Built the Palace which featured lower level suites........NBA first
    Built the Palace completely with private funds.........NBA first
    State of the art practice facility designed by Pistons...
    Obtained team private JET...Roundball One....NBA first
    Bought team for 6 million.........saw worth climb to 430 million.
    Made 70 million profits during Flip years........

    I wouldn't blame him for anything....

    Now his wife.........
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  4. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Just to debate...because you have a valid point...
    Tim Duncan was #1. He is head and shoulders above the rest of the draft class. I go as far as saying he stands apart from other prospects 3 years in each direction. San Antonio hung their 10 gallon hats on his HOF ability. The #2 pick for the Pistons was different in that they had their team. This prospect had to come in on an established team and carve a HOF dominating career. Would we talking dynastic dominance? Maybe. But you wouldn't build around D-wade...you'd have to reconstruct...or reload or whatever the term Dumars used..around Wade.
  5. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I agree the Pistons already had their team constructed. When you draft that high in the draft the player selected needs to be starting by mid-season other wise their growth is being stunted. I think the flaw that Dumars made is that he didn't draft the best available talent with that #2 he drafted on potential. The thing is Wade and Melo were better than RIP and Tay even in their rookie seasons. Melo averaged 21 points a game his rookie season while Tay averaged 10 points. I don't want to negate the contributions RIP and Tay made on the defensive end, but the fact is that Wade and Melo can fill up a stat sheet and create their own shot. No one on the Pistons roster past or present can do that. So I think they would have been able to carve out a HOF career because they had a skill and abilty that no one on the team had.
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  6. max

    max All-Star

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    It is unfair to call a small-mid market owner cheap if he does not want to pay too much luxury tax . The 2-1 fees just do not leave enough room for profit for them. I have not looked at the books but I can guarantee you that the big market teams who spend their way into the post-season are still making a profit. No ones game plan is to run their team for a loss.
  7. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    I wouldn't discount ego from the equation. LB had a huge one, and after the championship, so did the players. Those guys only ever seemed to want to play with each other. LB could handle them because they respected his coaching and he had a strong personality. Flip was the complete opposite and got steamrolled by the vets. Curry and Kuester just sucked. If you want a truly egoless team, you look at San Antonio, and that's because of Timmy and Pop who won't take **** from anyone. That's a big reason for their success. Not to mention excellent scouting. They got lucky with the number 1 overall and Tim, but they've gotten good value out of nearly every pick. They also cut their losses fairly quickly when they do screw up (signing RJ recently), and all with an owner who isn't exactly known as a big spender. Can't say the same for Joe.
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  8. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    You make valid points.
    Davidson did a lot of things to make Detroit a desirable FA destination.
    ...and then he decided to not take advantage of everthing that he had in place.

    The Pistons were one or two FA's away from dominating the decade and likely snagging 2 or 3 more rings. If Mr. D would have went into lux territory like other teams were doing, the Pistons could have maintained. I'm not talking franchise FA signings, just supporting cast guys.
    The Pistons won their championship, the Palace was full every night, the team was making $$$ hand over fist and was one of the most profitable franchises in the NBA.

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everything that Mr. D did for Detroit but he left some 'ships on the table if you ask me.

    (...Karen was after the fact.)
  9. Nemo

    Nemo The Great Predictor Forum Donor

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    Now....certainly your version could be right, but let me offer another spin for your consideration. LB shows up and really makes strides to improve the game of Chauncey. He sees another piece of the puzzle who he knows can be managed for another season or 2 and he picks up Sheed. The inmates are allowing LB to handle them during 2004 and by 2005 they are becoming antsy. LB senses this and wants to jump ship. This is what he always does. Enter Flip during 2006 season. He makes some changes and the inmates are riled. Chauncey, is ok with Flip because he has more freedom and less restrictions, but Ben and Sheed are ready to revolt by 2007. The players heads are so big from media attention that Flip doesn't have a chance.

    I really think that any coach...including LB woulda been run out of the building by 2008.
  10. Nemo

    Nemo The Great Predictor Forum Donor

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    I agree with you. I just wouldn't hold it against him as he did so much for us fans. Karen mucked things up even worse with her lack of ownership. I think FAs decided that the Pistons became an undesirable stop....during her ownership.
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    You can only go into lux tax to sign your own players that you had Bird rights on and back then 2nd round draft picks did not count so they could not do anything about Okur leaving. They spent the MLE on Dyess and gave Sheed what he wanted to come back but they could not do anything about Okur and James leaving. It was not about being cheap - just what the rules were back then. Things happen - think Dallas wanted to lose Chandler?
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  12. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but Lux tax aside, wasn't Bill Davidson resistant to even breaching the soft cap?
    I thought that the whole Memo issue was a Lux tax issue.
    ...I admit that I've only started really paying attention to capology during the last 4-5 years or so.

    All I remember is letting players like Okur & James walk while replacing them with guys like Anthoney Goldwire, Tremaine Fowlkes, Horace Jenkins, Rufus Henry and Smush Parker. I also remembering the cast of cheap band aid solutions for the backup SF position. Instead of spending the cheddar to bring in a decent (just a decent) FA, we saw a revolving door of Mo Evans, Jarvis Hayes and Walt (Dirk stopper) Herrmann.

    Priority one should have been re-stocking that team at any price. Maybe hard living in my younger years has skewed my memory but I remember Piston ownership being the target of everyone's anger regarding this.
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    They changed the rule regarding signing 2nd round picks the following year. Back in 2005 if you wanted to re-up a 2nd rounder you had to have the soft cap space to do it in - just like a regular FA. Same applied to James since we did not have Bird rights on him either. No team given that situation could have kept Okur and James.

    As Winless pointed out the Pistons have paid lux tax on occasion.
  14. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Thanks for the info max. ...2 questions:
    What was everyone always complaining about regarding Mr. D's tight purse strings?

    Do you think Piston ownership did everything that they could do during the championship window years?
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I have a tough time holding the players responsible when they were brought in and resigned by the GM while their coaches had a half life of about 50 games. JD was properly backed by the owner/s.
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    Who was complaining? Only times I can recall where Davison intervened were refusing to sign a guy called Terri Mills back in the 90's and I think he may have had something to do with not giving Jerry Stackhouse a max deal back in 2001. Of course Dumars traded Stack for Rip so that worked out pretty good for us.

    2 cost cutting moves that I did not like were not matching Chic's offer for Ben Wallace and trading Billups for AI's expiring contract. But those were mainly Dumars moves.

    Fact is very few teams pay Lux tax and even fewer go way over spending like it does not matter. It has not worked out for the Knicks very well . Give away a crazy contract and it can cripple you for years.

    An example of a cheap owner. One time Orlando traded away their 1st round pick for a 2nd rounder because the 1st round guaranteed contract would have put them into lux tax.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yes, that is bad. It takes away any hope that the fans might have that you are trying to build a winner.
  18. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    The stars lined up better for the Spurs. That's all.
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    As in Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker?
  20. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yes. Make no mistake though; without Duncan they never would've won any championships in the post-Robinson era. When you have an all-time great at one of the toughest positions to fill in the league, it's relatively easy to build a winner around him. Since he came in the league, there really hasn't been anybody that was as effective and as complete of a player as he was at the 4 position. Sheed, and perhaps even KG came close, but everybody else falls short.

    The second is the stability and professionalism of the front office. Pops has a lot of power in the Spurs organization. No coach ever had that kind of luxury here. There is also the organizational discipline. There is rarely a story about player boycotts or coach-player infighting within that org. Part of it is the strong relationship, but it also has to do with the stars Duncan, Parker and Genobili all supporting and trusting Pops without question.

    The third is their international scouting team. Spurs are the best in the league when it comes to that, and somewhere I read that theirs is the largest international scouting team in the league. But, you can see the fruits of that labor in Genobili, Parker, Splitter etc.

    So, in short, we both had a legendary PF; it's just that ours was a headcase.
    We both had a legendary coach; it's just that ours was a headcase.
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