What was the true downfall of the Pistons? Comparing the Pistons to the Spurs.

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Winless Wonders, May 6, 2012.

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What is the primary reason for the Pistons downfall?

  1. The greed of Ben Wallace

    17.4%
  2. The trade of Chauncey

    8.7%
  3. GM making poor decisions

    82.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I was thinking about what was the true down fall of the Pistons. When you see a Spurs team that for the most part has the same core together and have added a few pieces here and there via trade and free agency why could the Pistons have not done the same thing and remained competitive? The Spurs and Pistons pretty much had a similar playing style focusing on defense.

    The Spurs model is what every team should stride for. I firmly believe that the Pistons could have stayed a force in the Eastern Conference.
     
  2. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    I am of the ilk that Ben made a huge mistake by leaving the Pistons. It all started when he left...and the Pistons had no answer for his departure. The core sensed that a breakup was inevitable once Ben left. He had every right to leave as a free agent, but it was his biggest career mistake, and one that broke up the team prematurely. It may cost him his HOF induction.........His production was slipping, but we fell off the cliff at that point, throwing Flip under the bus........running him over several times....then jettisoning Chauncey for AI.....

    Chauncey's leaving was the final nail in the coffin...............

    JD may...or may not have been able to salvage a more competitive team with better personnel choices.......
     
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  3. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I think the GM making poor decisions ruin the Pistons. It started after the won the championship in 2004. Gutting the bench for salary cap reasons and not bringing in more talent. To stay on top you have to be agreesiv eand not try to find success with rejects from other teams hoping they can play while getting them cheap.
    The drafting of Darko and the poor coaching selections starting with letting the Larry Brown fiasco get out of contol are my reasons for believing that the GM decisions are the prime reason the teamwent on the decline. Ben Wallace was already on the decline, but we did not go out and get a talent that could be comparable instead we over paid for Nazr Muhammad.
     
  4. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    The Spurs got lucky AND made some exceptional draft selections. Through the early 90's the Spurs were nothing special. They had the Admiral. Somehow the stars of the early 90's seemed more like superheroes. The Admiral, Sir Charles, Isiah and Joe, Magic, MJ23, Ewing, Olajuwon. I don't know, maybe I'm more jaded now.
    Anyway, they got lucky in the Tim Duncan sweepstakes. Picking out Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli is genius. I don't think any franchise other than the Lakers can boast the same draft savy and developmental success. So that's the elephant in the room when comparing us to them.

    One of the key differences between the Spurs and the Pistons is that Dumars made a conscious effort to shift away from the defensive identity of the franchise where the Spurs largely stayed consistent. Was this because the Spurs already had guys that could create their own shot? Maybe. But Joe did. He hired Flip who came up short every year with the regular season's most dominant roster. Now the Pistons have a smooth trajectory of success. They improved, competed then fell off the radar. The Spurs compete, win, disappear, come back, disappear again then come back again. Once the Duncan, Parker, Ginobli era is done, where will the Spurs be? They do have a knack of getting good role players. So we'll see.
     
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  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think ownership was the biggest reason for the Pistons downfall and it isn't a poll option.

    It was Mr D. who wanted LB gone (the most critical loss) and Mr D. who wouldn't pay the luxury tax to sign the MLE-type players that every other contender has.

    Joe did do a horrendous job of adding talent to the team given the salary constraints he had to operate within and his coaching hires bordered on "buffoonery" after Pound.

    The teams who have carried on for a long time have done so with one coach.
     
  6. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Somebody posted..."Now the Pistons have a smooth trajectory of success." I don't see this based on the current roster...not yet anyways.
     
  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The team was built for a nice 5-6 year run. Once that run was over, Joe Dumars stubbornly held on to pieces of the past based on pure loyalty and over-paying based on past performance. Instead of moving pieces (Tay, Rip, etc.) that no longer fit into a championship recipe, Dumars continued to extend these guys.
     
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    LB was the MVP of that 2004 team. Joe didn't maintain any stability with the coaching staff, and very few teams go from Championship caliber staff to anything better. TBH, Flip had nowhere to go but down because expectations were so high.

    You gotta give credit to Joe for hiring LB though. It took a lot of balls to fire Carlisle. Rick obviously went on to success with the Pacers and Mavs, so maybe that move was premature.
     
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  9. Woody

    Woody All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The one constant that the Spurs had was Popovich. If LB had stayed on and coached at the same level for the next 6 years, and had helped Joe with his player selection, the history would have been far different. The effect of consistent top-level coaching (and GM leadership) is the only guarrantee of long-term success. A la Jackson/Krause, Bowman/Holland, etc.
     
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  10. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    You forgot Bo Schembechler and Don Canham..........Go Blue !!!!!!
     
  11. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ben would be a clear Hall of Famer if he had stayed. He hurt his chances when he chose to CTC.
     
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  12. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    After LB left the players started running the show. The bad GM moves were compounded by the refusal from the GM and his staff to put the players in check. It started
    with Sheed then spread like a virus to Ben, RIP and Tay. The players did what they wanted because theyfelt they were champions and didn't respect the coaching staff.

    The signing of Ben Gordon and Charlie V. has been on of the worst free agent signings in Piston history. Not only were the contracts bad because we over paid them and they have not produced, but these guy's were taken off the market at midnight as soon as free agency opened. The Pistons did not even bother at least attempt to spend that cap space on 1 high level free agent availble like David Lee that more fit what the Pistons needed.
     
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  13. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    No matter how much we wanted Flip to go, he was winning just as LB was. I too put the intial blame on Mr. D for pushing LB out the door which started a slow spiral downwards....They were able to get to the ECF under Flip each year only to lose in game six each time. I also I think they were one player short each year or a key injury was the downfall. Other than Dyess, the 2006 playoff bench consisted Hunter, Tony Delk and Mo Evans. yep our third guard off the bench was Hunter.....:cheeky-smiley-012:...The team had the best record that year, but fatigue wore them down in the end as Flip played his starters too much and it appears the refs and the league wanted to reward Riles, Mourning, Shaq and Wade a chance at the title by allowing Wade to parade to the line more than the entire Pistons squad..

    In 2007, once again, # 1 record in the east even without Big Ben. Even had an extra guard to help out Hunter with Flip jr and Delfino to fill in for CB and Rip but in the end....no defense for King James as Tay was to thin to handle him and CWebb's knees were to tender to chase him.
    2008 uh oh for the first time in 3 years, we don't have the best record and know we are on a collision course with the Celtics. The only weapons :bs: Joe could sign were Theo Ratliff and Jarvis Hayes. Rookie Rodney Stuckey gets a lot of burn, but only because Billups is playing with a nagging groin injury suffered in the prior series vs the Magic. The 65% Billups probably cost the Pistons the series...IMO.

    So one impact bench player short each year forced Flip to play his starters upward of 38-42 mins per game in each of his three years at the coaching helm. Blame it on Joe and Mr. D for not findding the right player and Flip for not trusting the rookies tat were handed to him.

    We all know what happen after Flip was canned.....:crying:
     
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  14. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    One player leaving, for me, does not equal a downfall. Teams must adapt to long term injuries, and are still expected to be competitive, so I don't see how it is different. The Pistons were a very competitive team for a very long time, and whilst I would agree that the fall from grace was exponential, it wasn't quick enough to argue that either CB or BW were the identifiable causes. So far as I can see, that is an untenable position to take in light of the facts.

    I blame Dumars/front office, but that isn't really fair either, there were other forces at play. The true downfall for the Pistons was inactivity and contentment. Apathy stopped this team from reinventing itself, or even just rejuvenating.
     
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  15. max

    max All-Star

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    Spurs have an exceptional record that started when they drafted Tim Duncan. Its tough to compare your team to ones that have a Duncan or Kobe Bryant. If we had a superstar then I am sure we could have done better too.

    I wonder sometimes if I got different news sources that everyone else in 2005. Way I remember it LB was threatening to quit all year and ended up taking a job that payed 3X the amt he was getting here.
     
  16. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    yep.... him winning the title that fast here ruined him as much as it ruined the players.
     
  17. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    75% label the GM as the problem for our downfall to oblivion.

    Kinda tells me we still have a problem....
     
  18. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    So many things have to fall into place to win the title. Look at the Bulls this season. They were primed for a run at the title. Who's fault is it that Rose went down?
     
  19. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I think that poop flows down hill. If I'm assigning blame, I'm passing it out like this:

    1. Bill Davidson (R.I.P.) for not recognizing that sometimes in business (sports), you have to deal with difficult personalities (cough, cough, Larry Brown) when they're that talented. You also have to invest. The Pistons were playing against Armani rosters on a Members Only budget. When you have a championship calibur roster, you have to maintain it. It's pretty clear that the Pistons' window of opportunity was still wide open for a few years AFTER 2004. Nothing was done to capitalize on it.

    2. Larry Brown for being Larry Brown. L.B. is a brilliant basketball mind. He has only himself to blame for the ups and downs of his career. With a little humility and some professionalism, he could have had everything that Greg Popovich does; multiple championships, a winning culture, job security, love and adornment from fans. LB made his own bed and now he's laying in it at Southern Methodist University instead of maintaing a dynasty in Detroit.

    3. Joe Dumars for not using the clout he EARNED as a championship GM to stand up to his owner and primadonna coach and keeping the whole thing together. I've always viewed Joe as an insecure puppet of ownership. He should have grown a pair and said "Mr D.!, Larry! ...We've got something special here and we need to work this (expletive) out!" The worst case scenario would have been Joe leaving Detroit a hero and moving on to another team with deeper pockets and a more stable situation. He could have wrote his own ticket.

    Coaching hires, ownership changes and bad FA signings have happened since but all of this came after the party was already over.
     
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  20. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Speaking of #2........I agree here. I never put LB on a pedestal and think he coulda been like Popovich.

    Also...never considered the fact that JD may never have stood up to Davidson...
    If JD was/is a puppet GM, then that explains why he didn't get after Flip about standing up to his players better.

    nice post BDL.........
     

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