We Have Failed Miserably at Developing Young Talent/It Will Come Back to Bite Us

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by armygirl, Nov 10, 2006.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's funny, because he actually averages fewer fouls than Battie. And the Magic block almost 10% of the opponents shots when he is in the game. The Magic also outrebound the other team by 5.6% when he's in. They also outshoot the other team by 5% and shoot more free throws. Since he hardly ever plays with Howard, it's tough to say it is Dwight being effective.

    Just think how good they'd be if he stopped staring into space.

    I actually think that most of the fouls that Darko commits are on not on the man he's guarding. They are mostly on help out plays. These are plays that Nazr tends to not pick up fouls on.
  2. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't think it's that complicated. Both Darko and Carlos are going to get playing time. The sole factor for this conclusion is to see their long-term team value and in the case of Darko, to determine if they want to take themselves out of the FA market next year, because singing Darko will blow a huge hunk of their cap room.

    JD and Flip have both publicly acknowledged that Carlos will be given his chance to be succeed or fail. Those nebulous last words are pointing in a value added way for use (toward the negative route) as trade material. In my mind (and perhaps JDs) he is not heavy in IQ, which contradicts his impressive overall talent which is masked by layers of inconsistency. The league is full of such players.

    I believe there will be a trade before the deadline. Now the question, from a GM perspective, is how much do you keep for stability and to build around? By build, I mean trades, bench and draft choices. Leaving aside these latter choices, what players do we need to keep? Come up with a number first, since this will be your boundary, which will have to be permeable and flexible.

    Here are some variables to consider:
    • Position
    • Age
    • Salary
    • Fit in direction wanted from the GM (coaches come and go)
    • Psychological fit between teammates, and the coaching system.
    • Can they make their teammates better and what adaptability do they have in respect to playing time, position and role playing.
    • Can they exhibit, acquire and excel at that one tangible which is always overlooked...get the fans to back him and will him to succeed. Obvious good will toward one always brings latent, positive affects toward others (All-to-human factors aside).
  3. max

    max All-Star

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    It was kind of similiar situation at the start of 03/04 with Sura. Dumars brought Sura in to be the 3rd guard but LB just played him as the backup 2 and Hunter was the backup point.

    I think LB would have really liked Maxiel and Johnson. Especially Maxiel.
  4. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    I agree. They would have been great players in PRACTICE for LB.............:hoops:
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    A salary or roster size #?

    Salary #s are easy to generate compared to player by player analysis.
  6. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Reading Parker this morning, in the Detnews, I've think I've figured it out. We don't develop talent cause we don't have kids that the coaches want. When was the last time one of our coaches got to get his guy in the first round? If Joe let LB make the Darko pick, I don't care who the guy would be, he'd get burn.

    Carlisle had to be ordered to play Tay.

    Look at Flip and Murray/Evans. They were relatively young guys, not rooks, but definately not vets. But they were Flip's guys and he played them through mistakes. He said today, in Parker's article, that even though Murray's defence stinks, he thinks it will get better as Murray plays. Flip thinks Murray will be a great player, so he plays him. It's interesting how he doesn't give the other young guys more PT to get better, probably because he has zero confidence in them.

    If Joe is going to keep picking players without coaches input, then he better find coaches willing to play them.
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I think your on to something.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You are definitely on to something 16.

    McCloskey picked Tripucka and Thomas way back when. But Daly didn't like Tripucka's defense and he was moved for Dantley.

    At the Bad Boy's greatest, there was a partnership between Coach and GM. The modern day Pistons have had too much coaching turnover to form that kind of partnership.

    Mind you, Daly was a two time championship, HOF and Gold Medal Olympic coach. But even before Daddy Rich had all those achievements, there was still trust and teamwork between the coach and GM. McCloskey and Daly made their names together.

    Then again, Dumars is no Jack McCloskey.

    It's almost like the organization doesn't trust the coaches. Worried that they might become too important or powerful.
  9. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Lots to respond to...

    1. ``I assume that it would have been like that scene from Full Metal Jacket.''

    This is my whimper; this is my whine.

    2. Roscoe, re your hiding Darko theory: if I'm not mistaken, it doesn't matter how much Darko's worth at the end of the season -- they would have to renounce him if Carter's willing to go there. Is that correct?

    3. Joe insecure in his power vis-a-vis coaches? That doesn't sound right. Just doesn't make sense. Joe's put in his time with Mr D and no coach is gonna leapfrog that relationship. IMO, I like the theory about coaches not getting the players they want, but really and truly this is the most common flaw in a coach-GM relationship. Not worth trying to solve or even think about. Just hire the best coach we can find, and keep firing them until we luck into a good one.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'm not ultra familiar with Orlando's cap situation, but this is probably true considering that Carter, the team killer, bad shot taker, will get a max deal.

    I'm talking oganizational culture. The comment is based on historical events.

    I think that matching coaches to personnel is very important (see last year's Pistons). Hire and fire works well in casual discourse, but it is hard to attract quality coaches when the franchise has a reputation for isolating and firing them on short notice.
  11. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    How many of us here think that Flip will lead us to a championship? His window of opportunity is closing.

    My honest opinion is that the players DO NOT respect Flip for whatever reason. Could it be that Flip in not so many words blamed the loss to Miami on the players.

    We all know that if the players don't respect you, they can play all 70 something games just going through the motions.

    Maybe Flip lacks leadership, persona, he kind od reminds me of Joe Lieberman who looks like a whimp and talks like a whimp, the only thing is old Joe Lieberman has a little fire.
  12. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    There is more than one way to tell the story of how Darko did in this game. How about mentioning that he played the first 10 minutes of the 4th quarter. How about Seattle not being able to score but 10 points in the first 8 minutes of that quarter? How about the fact that Orlando took a commanding lead with Darko on the floor? It was great to see his coach trust Darko with these valuable 4th quarter minutes.

    Finally, you could mention that after Darko did foul out, Seattle scored with ease every time down after that, and but was saved by a last 2nd shot by Turkoglu to preserve the win for Orlando. A win Darko surely helped get, specifically with his excellent defense. A guy that tall and that active is very rare indeed in the NBA.
  13. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    this is flawed logic. in statistics, which is proven mathematics, you have to always be careful not to imply causality. in a fluid, changing game like basketball, there are countless variables to consider. while you *may* have a point, you can't associate a single variable (darko simply being in the field of play) with exact results of the game.
  14. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Well gee, if you want to speak of logic, then you can please re-read how my post started: :"There are other ways to tell the story" Since I am by no means saying my story is the only way to tell it, your post is quite illogical.

    I actually saw the game. I know Darko was doing well in that quarter.
  15. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    The last three years the coaches have been neck deep in playoff strategies... they were way behind in keeping up with the draftees, often missing the private workouts... management and scouts were way ahead of the curve when analyzing the finer points of player skills.
    Playoffs over?... boom... draft
  16. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    From what I make of the conversations coming out of Orlando, Carter is not being strongly considered as a future Magic player, and by strongly, I mean, he would never be in position to get a max contract down there. I believe they will extend the present core before they go looking for more pieces to the puzzle.

    A lot of the posters, myself included, do not feel the need for a player such as Carter, who demands the ball way too much. The team spirit that is developing in the Magic players would not be put at risk for a me first player like him.

    And as for the salary cap, the owners have given permission to pay what is necessary to assure them a team capable of competing for a championship, lux tax be damned.
  17. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    You have to go with player analysis. There is no reason to blow up the team, but you will have to spend some big money to buy time if you are to stay competitive. Detroit has no wiggle room, and JD will have to convince Davidson that money is the only solution.
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Lazy, the Magic are fun to watch, but they gotta put an end to the stupid turnovers. It is neutralizing their high FG%. From what I notice, most of them are caused by trying to force the ball to Howard and by Howard throwing bad passes out of the post.

    It really makes me appreciate CBill's control of the ball and the tempo.

    The best part about the Magic right now is their desire and enjoyment of the game.
  19. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    that is so incredibly lame. you make a ton of assumptions in your post, and then try to say a little disclaimer at the top invalidates my point? when it is clear you're attributing the magic's success solely on darko being in the game?

    c'mon now, that's weak.
  20. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    "the franchise has a reputation for isolating and firing them on short notice."

    It may look that way, but coaches may feel differently. They know Carlisle wanted to go work for Bird anyways, and nobody holds it against a franchise when LB leaves after 2 years. And, any coach worth hiring knows Flip's getting a year more than he deserves. So, on the surface,we have a high churn rate, but with a bit of thought, it look different. No? IMO Davidson is an issue, but there are so many mitigating factors...

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