Washington Nov 1 2008

Discussion in 'November 2008' started by roscoe36, Oct 30, 2008.

  1. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Wow.

    Here I was thinking that a contributing factor may have been the 23 points we gave them off of 18 turnovers.

    Clean that up and the Wizards only score 86 points last night.

    Of course, that doesn't help your agenda due to the fact that Hermann and McDyess didn't have a turnover between them. I get that.


    Moving on... :movingon:
  2. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Yeah, Low, thanks. This makes a lot of sense to me. And, DBA, your explanation for the particular of the Wiz game also makes sense, so thanks for that too.
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Gee, and did you ever think that quick defenders might get back and stop a bucket off a turn? That happens too, if Dyess and Herrmann are on the bench where they should be.

    Now, here are the facts, in case you are interested. Yes, by 6 minutes into the game, we had already given up 4 points off turns. And we led 20-8 at that point. Without the turns, I guess that would be 20-4 by your logic, darn good either way. The rest of the game - 6 more points off turns were scored by Washington while neither Dyess nor Herrmann was on the floor.

    I got a question for you. You sound like you are trying to argue with me - but do you, or do you not, believe that less points off turns would have been scored if Herrmann and Dyess were not so slow? Do you or do you not see the relationship between slow players and transition D?
  4. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Of course.

    It's not the ballhandlers fault.

    It's the fault of the guy that didn't anticipate his teammate turning the ball over so he could get back and defend.

    I would prefer to put the horse in front of the cart, and eliminate the turnovers entirely, while holding Washington to only 86 points.
  5. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Not really. I prefer attempting to reason versus attempting to argue. I would not dream of doing such a thing with you.


    Not even the quickest of power forwards are going to catch up to an athletic NBA guard with a 20 feet head start. Tayshaun barely caught an about to retire unathletic Reggie Miller and he only had to make up about 5 feet.

    So your answer is..
    Nope. I sure don't. Backcourt turnovers put frontcourt players at a significant disadvantage, to the tune of 20 feet or so.

    The onus in this case to defend would be on the backcourt players, who should have been the first ones to recover and defend the basket.

    Sorry. But I don't see the defensive benefits of putting the other team in the penalty with ones fouls. Make mine Dice and Herrmann. :bored:
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Did you actually watch this game? Sounds like you are talking in generalities to me. I actually watched the game, and saw how much distance there was, who was trying to catch up, and who was running out for the other team. Most of the time, save maybe twice, somebody should have gotten back. (And of course, actually, a point off a turn is not always a fast break point. Like when Amir got an offensive foul. Points scored after that are points off turns. And some points off turns are indefensiveble, as the turn takes place right near their basket. But in this particular game, there were plenty of turns at our basket, that were ran down the other end way too slowly to use the "can't catch up excuse.")
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    You speak in generalities all the time. Relying on the thinly veiled obscurity of subjective replay interpretation has been your bread and butter play for over a decade.

    I actually respect it. It's like Stockton and Malone's pick and roll.

    It's still amusing that you would accuse me of it however. :eyebrows:

    I did watch the game. Once again, you're attempting to lay the cart before the horse. Don't blame theoretical help defenders for points off turnovers, blame the guy that turned the ball over.

    I appreciate the try however.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's very tricky to interpret the +/-. Over a short period of time, a player can play great and teammates can screw it up for him. And obviously, the opposite can happen. But over the long run, it can be as useful as it is in hockey.

    The more a team is mixed and the more that each player ends up playing with various combinations throughout the year, the more it will tell you. If the starters always play with eachother and the bench comes in as a unit, then the stat will be very correlated between the players on each unit.

    Using this game as an example, Amir had a very high +/-, but had a bad game. He did a few things well, but our starters were on fire shooting to start the game. AJ was at the right place at the right time. In his defense though, his fouls were not that costly to us as many of them were off the ball and didn't directly result in FT's.

    The only real thing I would say about this game's +/- is that it shows that the starters played better than the bench. Herrmann had a very good game and his +/- is 0 because he was in almost equally with the starters (+) and the bench (-).
  9. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    While watching the game I said, oh, they've gone small, then I tried to figure out what it meant. There were two 6'9" guys on the floor after all. Take out a guard and put in a 6'11" guy and they would have gone big.

    So, calling it cosmetic - in the sense that it has less to do with size and more to do with style of play seems right to me. I guess it's still possible in the league to go big - twin tower kind of thing, but going small has more to do with style than size most of the time.
  10. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I went and watched the game film last night. I even did some frame by frame viewing so I could focus of the Piston help D. I noticed some interesting things vis a vis some of these discussions.

    The Pistons 17 point lead was cut to 10 in the 1st quarter before Herrrrrrman or Dyess even played. To a layman this would indicate that the Wiz figured something out before those guys played, but thanks to the frame by frame viewing I noticed the slumped shoulders and bad posture of CB, Max, Stuckey, Tay (All fine defenders!) anticipating Herrrrman and Dyess coming into the game with their sloppy, lazy D. The lead went back to 17 with Herrrrrrman still in the game and when he left it was back to 10 points.

    I did notice a play that seems to speak directly to Herrrrrrman's inability to get back on transition D though. DET ran a curl play where Walt curled off a screen ala Rip and cut down the center of the lane from the FT line. Rip had the ball just to the right of to center of the 3 pt line and threw a pass to Herrrrrrrman that was behind him. The ball hit off Walt's trail hand and the Wiz were off and running easily going pass Rip who threw the pass for a layup and had a full view of what had happened. Now before you go blaming Rip, a fine defender, you need to watch the frame by frame to see what's up. In this setting you see a clearly disgusted Rip thrown off his game when Herrrrman couldn't regain his balance, change direction and beat the Wiz players who were already going forward with momentum down the court to take a charge. He closed to the shooters back shoulder when the shot was taken.
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Herrmann is the mann.

    That will be what my sign says when I go to my next game.
  12. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    Yeah, I was going to start grading Curry after the road trip. See how he does in visiting environments first.
  13. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    If I'm the 5th guy on the floor (see Bruce Bowen, Oberto, Perkins) with Duncan, Garnett or Kobe, I can average 3 pts, 2 rebs and have a +10 DOING ABSO NOTHING. I just hate stats. When I was growing up WE DIDNT EVEN HAVE CALCULATORS!!

    Just play the game...and beat the other team by ONE!
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That is why I say it is more powerful when you run different combinations over time. It is basically a regression analysis.

    But in reality, in your example above, the other team would spot you on the court and would abuse you repeatedly. They would either score on you directly or get a wide open shot when one of your teammates tries to guard your man. It would be very difficult getting to +10.
  15. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    you dont mean ME personally, do u? cuz i'd GET MINE!! LOL
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    You're the one who brought you up.

    Post your mixtape on youtube and I'll reconsider my opinion.

    :hoops: :p_welldone:
  17. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    When i played my games were only seen on BETAMAX! LOL
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Sounds like something Sheed would use to get inside your head.

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