1. PF.com is also on Facebook. Follow/Like us Here.
    Dismiss Notice

Home Utah Jazz - Wednesday, March 15, 2017

Discussion in 'March 2017' started by roscoe36, Sep 25, 2016.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    31,439
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thule
    Where is the fun in that? :cheeky-smiley-012::cheeky-smiley-012::cheeky-smiley-012:
     
    The Panda likes this.
  2. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,904
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    Gender:
    Male
    We don't have to like each other while we do it :)
     
    roscoe36 likes this.
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    31,439
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thule
    I like you. You remind me of me when my entire brain worked.
     
  4. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,671
    Likes Received:
    1,720
    He played because of his mental attitude, energy and his physical play. Granted, he has a problem with sticky hands, but twice the man Dre has become.


    I don't think there is anyone on this forum, that expects (or expected) KCP to carry this team. Now he comes off his long rookie contract and has been given every opportunity to improve (as a full-time starter). I don't see the a sudden jump in career stats, mental improvement or consistency. He is, what he is....good motor, slightly above average defender, and has not progressed at the position that must become much more dangerous to the opposition (SG). Regarding the latter sentence, he is not worth 20+ Million. He will not become a S. Livingston. Who comes off the bench, and makes 5.7 M and could easily replace him. Yet, of course, there is that age difference and it is unfortunate that most of the leagues GM's are wrapped up into giving everyone 4-5 year contracts, when 3 years seems ideal. I would give Livingston a three year deal at half the cost of KCP even though many have him listed as a 6-7" PG. He would start and really solidify this team.

    I only agree with your opinion because this team has no individual or collective identity. This is SVG's fault. He has stuck them into his system and they are not talented or mature enough to quickly or incrementally adapt. They cannot do it and the only person that can change this is SVG. There is a reason that the entire club reacts much differently when they follow (or must adapt) to Ish's game flow. In a sense, I think that Stan has boxed himself into a youthful and generational situation when maturity takes a much longer time to develop. And this organization has paid out some big money in hoping they eventually get it. For me, I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
    TheeTFD, brofmfa, kolay and 3 others like this.
  5. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,904
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    Gender:
    Male
    Haha I like you too! Wouldn't come here often if I didn't like the members.

    Wow, this is the first Pass post I have read without an obscure text reference!! Awesome :)

    I agree that he isn't worth the max, although the market may dictate that he ends up getting it. KCP has gotten significantly better in 4 years, with consistent progress. This I like, he isn't just having career years but actually progressing as a player. I bet than in two years time he is 20% better than he is now. Whether that is worth whatever the max is, is another discussion entirely.

    Livingston is a point guard with a broken jumpshot coming off a huge injury (that should have ended his career). Love the guy as a player but he doesn't hold a candle to KCP now and even less so in the future. Given the hobbled offense that we have, we really need to find two way players, and herein lies the stickler. These players are the worst combination of rare and in demand. I keep hearing about 3 & D guys but all the decent ones are earning 8 figures easily or about to sign big contracts.

    This team needs a point guard more than anything. Last year most people agreed that we were living and dying by Reggie's play. Right now we are dying. And SVG needs to put aside everything and get these guys to play some real up-tempo basketball. It will sacrifice our defense but our offense is just too bad.

    I like KCP because he leaves it all on the floor. He takes shots when he feels it and he hounds on the other end all game long. He doesn't lack confidence and he seems like a real professional, even though he is so young.
     
  6. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,950
    Likes Received:
    3,506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    What does Van Gundy think when he watches the other teams pass the ball and move non-stop? He can't really think it is just a few guys not playing hard that is sinking the Pistons, can he? Can he really not see that almost every team they play plays together as a group better than they do?

    Utah took away Drummond rolling through the paint by putting a lot of bodies around him. This stymied their offense and they took a lot of bad shots. Van Gundy seemed to respond by putting Baynsey in who they wouldn't pay attention to so they could keep taking the same bad shots and he might get close enough to rebound them.

    I enjoyed when KCP missed a quick, long 3 with about 2 minutes to play and senile Greg Kessler said something like, 'Well, he's shooting and hoping he can catch fire like he did a few weeks ago.' Their offense was just chucking up shots and hoping they went in.

    He must have been playing hard though or Van Gundy wouldn't have had him out there.
     
    basketbills, roscoe36 and The Panda like this.
  7. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,950
    Likes Received:
    3,506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    I'd be careful hoping for other shooting guards to come in here and start producing. Right now it would take a MJ or Kobe Bryant to do that.

    Until the Pistons can start moving the ball around with the purpose of getting guys open I don't think it matters who they get.
     
    roscoe36 and The Panda like this.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20,768
    Likes Received:
    7,936
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    With KCP, can't we just use his Bird rights to go over the cap without tax?

    It is likely that another team with cap space will be willing to max him out. Then, we can just match and keep him, right?

    But aren't we in the same situation as we were with Dre? I.e. we will want to sign all other players first and nudge close to the cap and then sign KCP to go way over.


    Please set me straight as I don't have the patience to figure out the convoluted system that they have developed.
    NBA salary cap - Wikipedia
     
    roscoe36 likes this.
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    31,439
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thule
    "These guys play like my Magic teams did with Turkoglu and Shard."

    Baynes was -2. Dre was -13.

    Obviously Baynes outplayed Dre. More points and rebounds in only 3 more minutes.

    Baynes matched Gobert's hv (help value).

    PopcornMachine's GameFlows - Utah Jazz @ Detroit Pistons - Mar 15, 2017


    View: http://imgur.com/a/ytOsp
     
  10. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,904
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    Gender:
    Male
    You can go over the cap whilst resigning players with bird rights. From wiki
    The question isn't whether or not we want to pay him X or Y. It's whether we want to be one of the heaviest payrolls in the league and only winning 40 games. Never leaving the first round.

    This team has no flexibility right now.

    $108m a year is what we are currently paying. $6m of that is players that are not even on the team. That is madness. All that is expiring next year is Reggie Bullock (2.25m) & Beno Udrih (1.5m). Baynes has a 6.5m player option which he will probably decline. If we resign him @ $10m and KCP @15m then we will be near $120m.

    The tax line this year is $113m for reference and the salary cap is 94. They expect the cap to jump to $102m (so regardless, we are capped out), so maybe the tax line goes to $121m and we avoid it.
     
    roscoe36 and basketbills like this.
  11. junior

    junior All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,014
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Solid resource: NBA Salary Cap FAQ

    We were able to do that with Andre because no other teams made an offer sheet to him as they were sure we would match. However, if a team with a boat load of cap space (The Maximum Available 2017 Cap Space For All 30 NBA Teams, Version 3.0 - RealGM Analysis) like Philly or Brooklyn is willing to take the risk of an offer sheet, the Pistons would have three days to match, hence losing the ability to hold off on signing KCP until other free agents are signed. The risk for these teams would be that the offer sheet counts against their cap for the three days and makes it difficult for them to sign other free agents, especially if they are pretty sure we'd match.
     
    roscoe36 and TaS like this.
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20,768
    Likes Received:
    7,936
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    We can theoretically go $20MM over the cap if we pay him $20MM and not pay luxury tax, as long as he would be signed last, right? If that is true, then it sounds like we have some flexibility as long as we beat the clock and sign someone else quickly.

    I can understand Gores trying not to get taxed, but otherwise, he should be trying to get a winner to boost his manliness.
     
    roscoe36 likes this.
  13. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,950
    Likes Received:
    3,506
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    Wow! Maybe Van Gundy should step aside as the GM too.

    On the bright side Jon - 4 years $40+ million - Leuer is close to being out of the rotation altogether.
     
    roscoe36 likes this.
  14. del

    del All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    753
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Geneva
    Brutal assessment by SVG.
    I've been guilty of thinking SVG misses this stuff but of course he knows a lot more about basketball than me.

    Striking thing for me was how he was so surprised at Reggie being gassed after 2.5mins of a quarter. They need to do an assessment of his condition (which is only vaguely referred to) and work out if he is just unfit or if it is related and there is still a way to get him going longer.
    The 6min starts seem to be a great idea, even though it hasn't worked so far


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    roscoe36 likes this.
  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    4,713
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't care how much Gores pays, or if we got to the luxury tax area. I don't care if we end up being the team with the highest payroll. If we win, I don't care. It's somebody else's money.
     
    del and roscoe36 like this.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    31,439
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thule
    :smiley hug:
     
  17. del

    del All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    753
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Geneva
    Edit: It has worked more than it has not. May have been a little post-loss overreaction... Actually think we should keep it up as it looks like it does work.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    BillLaimbeer and roscoe36 like this.
  18. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,904
    Likes Received:
    2,573
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not just about next year. We will be basically capped out and only able to use a smidgeon of money to sign players plus maybe the mid level exception. But a lot of these guys have multiple years left on their deals. I don't think much changes next year, but what about the year after that?

    We won't get what we need between the $5m MLE and whatever coins we can find under the couch. But even more than that, we have no roster space.

    This team doesn't change materially unless there are trades involved.

    Gundy has made some decent moves as a GM. Tobias Harris is pretty much the shining example here. Using the stretch on Josh Smith also helped immensely. Reggie Jackson looks bad this year, but last year he was hard carrying us more often than he should.

    But nobody is going to take Leuer off our hands, even with his front-loaded contract.

    Things could be pretty dire if he wants to make changes.
     
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    20,768
    Likes Received:
    7,936
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Leuer's 3-point shot is just slightly better than Dre's percentage on desperation 3-point heaves (.304 vs .286).

    Before we signed him, he had only hit 75 3-pointers in his entire NBA career and he's 27 years old. Stanley Johnson has hit 97 for comparison and he's 20 years old and isn't a very good 3-point shooter.
     
    roscoe36 and del like this.
  20. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,671
    Likes Received:
    1,720
    True, but the main emphasis for SVG was to get some bench strength; plus Leuer has enough agility to cover the 4 position and perhaps slide over to the Center position if the team had to take out Dre .
    Baynes, Leuer, Johnson, Bullock, and Ish, is not a bad bench. The starting five (minus Leuer) have hit a brick wall and it will remain so.
     
    roscoe36 likes this.

Share This Page