truehoop: Time to Blow Up the Pistons?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by lurker, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    The problem with Nazr is the length of the contract. I don't think it will be easy to get rid of him even as a throw in to even out the dollars.
  2. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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  3. Tally

    Tally First Round Draft Pick

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    Isn't the Dleague limit 2 players at a time? If Samb comes over to take on of the spots (yes/no?), that would mean we can only plant one more in Soiux Falls. If that happens (and there are no trades involving our picks) Joe takes a "player" with the 15 and drafts an overseas guy with the 27 so we are not trying to develop 4 or 5 guys at the same time.

    With almost everything on the table, alot could happen. I like your lineup. I could see Tiago Splitter falling to our 27 pick because he doesn't even have a buyout clause for next year at this time.

    I hate to say it, but I could see Joe keeping Nazr around if the cost to move him get too high...especially if we lose a big and trade a pick or draft a euro with 27.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I read recently that Splitter can buyout for $500k USD. That's much less than Delfino paid.

    The D-League limit is two players simultaneously.

    I am thrilled that Amir has used up all of his D-League eligibility. :thumb:
  5. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Roscoe, a lot depends on coaching next year. Is AJ going to get a chance to play or will he get into the games for 2-3 minutes once in a big while? We all know that he can develop only by getting minutes, not by practicing. As some writers describe him he's a gym rat. Maybe he'll develop some additional assets over the summer. And Samb maybe ready as well. That would be a nice surprise.
  6. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

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    After having to pay him this summer (RFA) there should be no reason to hide him. The list of bench riding vets ahead of Amir has shrunken considerably.
  7. hangtime

    hangtime First Round Draft Pick

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    we definitely don't need to blow this thing up. The honest truth is we need a center, even if it is just a big body. look at the center the spurs have now and when then beat us (nazi). our problem has been relying on undersized guys at a key position for this team. that center can affect the slashing penetration that we are so suceptible(sp?) to.

    We can not deal chauncey because he is one of the top six point guards in the league, and if we aren't going to get Nash, Parker, Davis, Kidd, or the guy from Utah who's name escapes me, why bother.

    Sheed and Nazi are going nowhere because of their contracts, so we may as well deal with them.

    The bench is where we can overhaul. I would release/ trade everyone except Max and Dyess, bring AJ and blaylock permanently and maybe bring in Hill to back up tay.

    So, we either solve our center problem 1) thru the draft (admittedly a gamble) 2) thru free Agency (not sure who's out there) or 3)we roll wit Naz (who was good enough to continue starting until Webb got here)
  8. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    First, bringing the coach back is not good news if that happens. He just hasn't shown it so far. He is learning on the job. How far would this team have gone with Phil Jackson?

    If we trade Sheed and I think he has value (the Knicks would love him I would imagine), you better get a major shot blocker and a go to guy in his place. Maybe Prisbilla and Randolf from Portland just as an example.

    We are probably better off keeping Sheed.

    We do need a real center. A big body. I would try and keep Webber but as a back up center and back up power forward.

    Billips has been exposed--sort of. He can still hit the big shot and he can be used as a major shooter. Since we probably can't get a good point guard to take his place, you have to plan on getting a serious back up penetrator guard to go along with him. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TWO YEARS AGO.

    So, I guess it may be better not to blow up the team but do what we should have done before and make it work. We need a credible defensive specialist (not Hunter).

    I would blow up the team only if that meant bringing in a major star like Garnett, Pierce or J. Oneal--someone who would have a major impact.
  9. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Or anything else that is quick and moves aggressively toward the basket.

    Sheed could cherry-pick (like Duncan) and make 10 foot fade-aways all night. It just doesn't go with his self image. One-half a Sheed still gets you in the top 5-10. JD knows this and this is why he stays. The only way JD gets the highest value from Dyess and Sheed is to open up the 3 position and stop the defensive cheating from the other side. Sheed and Dyess will share time at the 4 spot which will draw them closer to the paint. Hamilton continues to open up the short perimeter and his movements allow creative options off the screens.

    My choice for a potential 3 is all ready known, with Amir getting learning backup time. Maxiell, DD, and the Sean Williams (Flip should make it known to DD that he will be used during 07-08) mix with the 5 position. Flip, along with Acker even out the PG. The Billups S/T and other draft picks could make all this happen. And yes, Tay is gone.

    With this combo, you still have the vets talent equal to any team 82 game schedule. You have an answer to any club come Eastern playoffs. Youth is being served. You are ready for heavy and equally surprising contributions during the playoffs, with any combinations of players playing big. Experience transfers around the water-hole and you have reserves acting as "mitochondrial" energy cores. In short, you now have the beginnings of a self replicating bio-system.

    Life is good...no... it is always good.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ok, this is pretty much the best thing I have read in a couple days.
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    I would say bridge the gap is the best strategy.

    re-sign Billups and only trade one of the other starters if there is a good deal on the table.

    Restructure the bench. Trade Delfino, cut Murry, let Hunter retire and Cwebb walk. Davis would be worth signing if the price is right.

    Bench core. Acker, Amir, Dyess, 15th pick - backup point?, Maxiel.

    Maybe Delfinio and Mohammed can be packaged for something.
  12. Tally

    Tally First Round Draft Pick

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    I read that "Bridge the Gap" artilce and all it did was piss me off. Every single time I see something from the Pistons that refers to their young players, it's always "...they will be a good player, just not next year..." In this case it was Amir they were talking about.

    That mindset is exactly one of the biggerst problems this franchise has. The absolute unwillingness to give younger players the consistent minutes they need to see what they have is hard to understand. Is it the vets unwilling to give up minutes? Is is a coach afraid that regular season losses will expose his inability to manage players and game situations?

    This notion that young players can be purchased like penny stocks to see what they become in 3 or 4 years has worked for them when? A player sitting on the bench for 3 or 4 years isn't patient, he either sucks or hates your friggin' guts and can't wait to leave.

    I was all for just adding a couple of pieces and keeping Chauncey, but realistically, what is going to change? Flip will keep his aging vets on the floor for 44 minutes a game while the younger guys sit. We have a coach who doesn't believe in tired legs and a GM who is held hostage by firing so many of them.
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The Pistons' PR machine is always trying to soft sell an opinion, and usually one that covers their butts.

    It's sad to see Keith Langlois go from quality columnist to franchise apologist.
    I'm just tossing this out there as a theory, but perhaps Flip is more focused on winning regular season games because he lacks playoff confidence (having never accomplished a lot in the playoffs).
    The thing is, Joe built this team in FA and not the draft. The only two draft picks of note on the championship team were Memo and Tay. Again, it might be Joe playing away from what he perceives as a weakness and trying to ride his strength in one area of team building to the exclusion of others.
    Nothing is going to change until the front office develops some more maturity. It's easy to point the finger at the players and say they have "a switch" but the front office has duplicated that attitude and enabled it with the players.

    Manu Ginobili is one of the greatest SGs of this generation, and Popovich has the wherewithal to bring him off the bench. And somewhere in that level of respect and control that Pop has is an understanding and acceptance from the player to put the team first at all costs.

    You never see the Spurs talking about MVP awards or All-Star selections. They legitimately talk championship and then they walk that walk without the side show antics and double talk.
  14. Maverick

    Maverick First Round Draft Pick

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    Nice post Roscoe.. I pretty much agree with all of it.

    heres a theory of mine.


    WHAT IF. flip doesnt play the bench beacuse hes afraid of losing.. or them making him look bad.

    WHAT IF flip would play the bench alot if he knew his job was safe.

    WHAT IF flip Gets a encouraging talk from dumars.. and an assurance that his job will be intact as long as he keeps increasing his benches responsibilites.. and maybee to take some risks everyonce in awhile.

    I dunno.. what do u guys think about this?
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    If Flip doesn't realize that regular season record just sets the table for intense scrutiny if the playoff success doesn't follow, then he is a lost cause.

    I understand this guy dominated the CBA, but that was 10+ years ago, and this is a much more competitive league. It's not enough to win the division for Pistons fans. We would much rather suffer through a 4th place conference finish and an appearance in the Finals than losing 4 straight to a lesser team in the conference finals.

    But then, it all comes down to what Dumars does. Is he under a mandate to keep Flip because Bill Davidson is "tired" of paying coaches off (like the fans don't get tired of paying to see half effort regular season home games) as Chris McCosky suggested, or if he keeps Flip, does he really believe that there is an upside to that?

    We had such great success with a first time coach (Carlisle) and a veteran coach (LB4LB). I'm having a hard time believing that Joe is afraid of change if there is potential to get better. The key elements to finish in the top half of the east are already on the roster, it's not like a new coach would have to come in and work miracles.

    Although the potential to work a miracle or two would be nice because the guy we got hasn't shown he has a "prestige" to his act.
  16. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Why should any NBA coach not know this in the first place??? People shouldn't be telling him what he should do on his own job.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    NBA 2006-07 Playoffs Team and player stats from 82games.com

    So now even with the Cleveland series taken into account, CB was still a top 5 playoff performer in the Duncan/ Kobe/ Lebron eschelon.

    His on court +/- was the best of the top 5 players.


    This would seem to indicate that the real problem was having NO backup, not a declining Chauncey.


    I can't help but think that Arroyo + DM (the top 2 roland rating and +/- players on the Magic in the Playoffs) would have led to a better playoff outcome for us if they would have been on the roster.

    Orlando Magic NBA stats and data from 82games.com

    I just get really frustrated when I think that our biggest problems are that we don't have a center or a backup PG and that we are old.
  18. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You have to understand that these guys have been traded to clear cap space to resign Ben. Oh, wait. Ok, Joe, that wasn't your best decision.
    I'm thinking of Darko all the time I hear people complaining about the lack at the C position. He could bring what Nazr will bring easily, plus, he's way younger and there's a possibility he could become far better. Nazr already hit the roof with his production.
  19. st8ofmind

    st8ofmind Bench Warmer

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    Damn tough to argue with any of that.

    Wish Arroyo would have learned to dribble 20% less and Darko would have learned to play 20% harder... OK maybe 50% harder.
  20. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    In dealing away Darko and Arroyo, Joe unfortunately besides clearing up cap room, also catered to the good old LB who refused to play either. The problem with developing young talent has become obvious. I agree that if we look back since Joe became GM who did he pick?
    Mateen Cleaves
    Brian Cardinal
    Rodney White
    Mehmet Okur
    Tayshaun Prince
    Darko Milicic
    Carlos Delfino
    Andreas Gliniadakis
    Rickey Paulding
    Jason Maxiell
    Amir Johnson
    Alex Acker
    Will Blalock

    Out of these guys only two are legitimate starters, one is looking to become a starter, maybe one of the better players in NBA, a couple of solid bench players, and a couple of players are on the bubble. Some of them are not even in the league.
    All we have is what we acquired in trades or through FA signings. This year is going to be tough on Joe. He needs some good to come out of the draft as well as FA market or a trade.

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