Away Toronto Raptors Wednesday Dec 19 2012

Discussion in 'December 2012' started by roscoe36, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    Calderon has 10 assists after 1 minutes has pased in the 2nd q.

    Absurd.
  2. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I can think of nothing I'd want to hear less from Blaha than "entering the lineup for the Pistons are Charlie V and Austin Daye".

    And then to watch Daye instructing Drummond about rebounding.
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  3. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I started off listening to the game on the radio in the car and was getting the Toronto feed. All the announcers kept saying is the Pistons and Rapts are going in different directions with the Pistons riding a five game losing streak and the Rapts riding a modest three game win streak. The way it sounded you would have thought that they were 5 games ahead of us instead of just a half. Finally made it home to begin the second and watched it on the tube.

    The Pistons started off with a bunch of offensive rebounds but were no match for Jose Calderon's 9 first qtr assists that gave the Rapts a four point lead at the end of one. The Pistons fought back in the second and scored the last six points of the second to tie at the half at 49.

    The game stayed close to start the third with the Pistons even taking the lead briefly, but the Pistons fell into funk but once again fought back to within 2 at the end of three. They could have tied it, but Moose who was having a great game decided to pass to Knight with only a couple of seconds left on the clock instead of possibly driving for an and one situation.

    The 4th quarter collapse was a deja vu of Monday night as the Pistons seem to get outhustled to every rebound and jump ball in the crunch time when it was still just a two possession game (trailing 91-87) with just over a minute to go.

    Moose scored a season high 35 pts, (not sure if that is his career high or not) as all of those missed bunnies from prior games started to fall. When you look at the final stats, you can see why we lost this one....even though it was close enough for a win. Knight was 1-10, Villanueva was 0-5 from beyond the arc, and Austin Daye after hitting his first bucket, a three in the first qtr missed all of his next five shots. Singler was no better going 3-9, and Max has retreated to his 2009-11 days missing buckets and FT's and getting out rebounded by four other team mates. The Pistons missed 12 FT's and it is difficult for bad teams to win games when they miss that many freebies.

    Stat of the night....Calderon had more assists (17) than the Pistons had (15) and at one point I thought he was going to go for 30-40 after putting up 9 in the first 10 mins of the game. Of course it was hard for are folks to get any assists with that many misses.

    I guess Larry will go with Daye another 3-4 games and then tryout JJ again before decides to throw a rookie in there....

    Speaking of rookies, Dre once again showed a lot of energy and even brought the ball down the court once before losing control of the ball on a drive to the hoop. Still he got more boards, steals, & blocks than Max, so one of these days, Frank will think about starting him....and maybe pairing him up with Moose in crunch time so that we won't miss out on all of the rebounds in the last two minutes like we did tonight...

    Still a work in progress..Go Pistons!!
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  4. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    Moose had an unreal night. 14-22 fg is great efficiency.

    Dre did really well in the 20 minutes or so that he played, pulling a heap of boards and just generally being the best defender on the court.
  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's losses like this that make me really appreciate Frank's conservative approach.

    I liked seeing Drummond dribble the length of the court before he had the ball knocked away. He expects to be able to do this stuff. He stands next to Blake Griffin and wonders what the big deal is. The Pistons want to break him of this.

    Amir has matured.

    This team has really improved.
  6. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    With this kind of poor guard production, you can't expect to win in the NBA of today. And this type of production happens too often.

    Something to think about: has the appearance of Daye signaled that the organization has given up on this year and that it wants to see all the players in action?
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Thanks to those of your who wrote summaries, I love to read them. Here is mine.

    Not one second of this game did coach have a sound unit in. Our starting unit is heavily flawed in two ways. JMAX was victimized 0ver and over because he is simply too short and the whole league knows it. We had a great rebounding first half, and yet we were just tied - because we gave up somewhere around 55% shooting to Toronto. Horrible, horribe defense - again, chiefly because JMAX was in. Although, using Singler as the starting shooting guard when he can't guard his guy is a third flaw.

    The worst flaw? Just one decent outside shooter, in Singler, in the starting unit. Yes, after that eye injury, Singler seemed to lose his shot - but it seems to be back now these last few games. Knight going 1-10 speaks volumes to that flaw. And while JMAX and Monroe can hit an outside jumper upon occasion, neither is anyone you want to rely on for outside shots - not to mention it puts our rebounders away from the rebounding action.

    Then you got Tay. Too old to be a starter anymore. He would actually be of great help in reduced minutes off the bench - if he could honestly beat others out for minutes. Which I doubt really.

    Am I the only one that sees, outside of Daye, we don't have anyone half that good at altering shots on the perimeter? We need two of him. And acutually, in Middleton, we have someone close. Coach just has to play him. Drop Tay out of the rotation, and start playing Middleton, English, and Daye. Singler starting at small forward, Daye backing him up. Then you got English starting at shooting guard with Middleton backing him up. We need this much more active set of wing defenders in.

    Back to that starting unit. It works some, but if Tay were replaced with English (moving Singler up to small forward) it would be tons better. And JMAX. Replace him with Drummond and never look back.

    Drummond was awesome in this game. Just two offensive rebounds show up for him in the stats, but his fighting for boards netted us plenty of 2nd chance points. Keeping us in the game, until of course the coach pulled him out of the game, for no reason at all. One foul. Just 20 minutes. And did I mention, nobody, and this included Drummond, ever got to play with a decent unit in. Drummond did play along side Monroe some in this game, but with a stinky Stuckey / Knight backcourt - lacking any semblance of a decent outside shooter.

    Monroe was truly awesome. And it just points up how bad a GM Dumars is that the guy who they put in to cool Monroe down was a guy given away by Dumars. Hey, if you don't like a guy, trade him. But build up his trade value first, then trade him. Don't give player after player away for absolutely nothing in return.

    I won't fault Knight for taking all those shots. With the crazy units coach uses, he had to do something. And since the units don't function at all, might as well hope you get hot on your shot.

    CV playing the whole 4th? Nuts. About 4 minutes into the 4th, we should have went to Drummond and Monroe together up front and ended the game in that fashion. In a winning fashion. You don't leave your very best players out of the game in crunch time. Getting JMAX out, sure he was hurting us bad and that was needed - but given the choice between CV (who the Toronto franchise has already seen up close and passed on - so show casing was not going on.) and Drummond. Not a coach in the NBA or even the D league would make that choice outside of Frank. No way.
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  8. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Agree, despite the poor shooting, were close enough in crunch time to pull this one out if Drummond had been in there ...instead of Charlie... Remember when we had two probable stops with less than 90 seconds and the Raptors got two offensive boards and eventually scored? I am sure with Drummond in the game, the possibility of getting both of them was probable. I am sure those who saw the game recall the three hit by Calderon after another Raptor had just missed a shot and we could not secure the board. It went from a 4 pt lead to 7 pt lead, where as rebound and hoop on the other end would brought the game to two pts with about 2 left in the game.

    I forgot to mention in my previous post that Moose scored 8 of the Pistons last 10 pts to end the game, but he was no match for Alan Anderson the former Spartan who scored 12 of his sixteen points in the 4th quarter, including two consecutive threes vs Singler who by the way was a -16.:cheeky-smiley-012:
  9. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    For all Frank's talk of merit, I've yet to see it in application. Austin Daye? I can't think of anyone not named Frank/not in Joe's pocket who can say with a straight face how Austin has done anything but hurt the team since he's come back in the rotation, Silver Tongue BS notwithstanding. And how about Andre? By how much does he need to outplay Max to get past his 20 minute ceiling?
    When BoT isn't hitting his shots, he's a huge, huge liability. Today's game proved that.
    I'm really, really tired of reading about Frank's arbitrary "process".
    Are we just going to go through the season holding auditions for the vets to get playing time? How about English? Or Middleton? Where's the Russian at?
    I'm starting to see why Lawrence Frank has a 16 game losing streak on his resume.
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here's how I'm seeing it.

    Both teams had 35 made baskets.
    We made 18 free throws and TOR made 17 free throws.

    So, we won the game by 1 point????

    The reconciling entry comes from 3-point makes. They made 10 and we made 3. That is 7 extra points purely because they chose to shoot from a specific area of the court.


    Our monstrous offensive rebounding night was made possible because of our poor shooting.

    We had an eFG% of .435 while Toronto was at .556.


    Kleiza did his best Charlie V impersonation tonight as he went 1-6 from deep and took no shots inside the 3-point land. He had 1 reb, 1 ast, and 4 personal fouls. The good news for TOR is that they are paying him half as much as we are paying our Charlie.


    The showcasing of Austin Daye has just completed game #2. According to Lawrence Frank, it has gone great and the kid is suddenly doing everything right after being in the doghouse for the entire season to date. I bet we're really fooling a lot of GM's with this subtle maneuver! Still, it is worth a try. Stealth tanking is in effect.
  11. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Failure in scouting.
  12. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Drumond is one of bright spots at the 2nd unit. That's why Frank keeps him there - his impact is there bigger. Frank tries to find some balance between 1st and 2nd units - and at least with drummond 2nd units is not so hopeless...
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Besides the obvious showcasing of Austin (he suddenly gets thrust into the lineup as an article comes out saying that Pistons are actively shopping him), it seems like Frank is experimenting with putting a lineup on the floor that caters to Rodney.

    Stuckey (battering ram)
    Singler (3-point threat, garbage man)
    Daye (3-point threat)
    Villanueva (3-point threat)
    Drummond (necessary component and screen setter)

    That lineup creates maximum space in the paint for Stuckey to drive and Drummond to dominate on the glass.

    Unfortunately, the system will eventually fall apart if the 3-point threats keep going 2-10.


    Maxiell with 1 defensive rebound tonight... again. What the heck?

    That is now 5 defensive rebounds in his last 110 minutes of playing time.
    Drummond has 27 defensive rebounds in his last 110 minutes for comparison.

    Even Charlie V even has 17 in his last 110 minutes.


    I think that it might be time for a change. Let Maxiell rebound against smaller players in the 2nd units.
  14. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Maybe when Frank talks about merit, he means things like executing the game plan, buying into the system, and playing the right way.
    Gifted athletes can freelance with success for awhile, but when they face organized machines (Pistons, 2004), or talent playing within a system (Mavericks, 2007), they will ultimately be defeated.

    If you want the gifted to buy into the system, you have to be consistent with reward those that do... even if they aren't gifted.

    I'm not sure that this is what Frank is doing, but it would explain his rotations a bit.
  15. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    IF that's what Frank is doing, sure. But I just feel like he's throwing lineups out there that don't make sense, and for a coach that claims to value defense, he goes and plays defensive liabilities BoT and Daye together with seemingly no regard for that end of the floor. And as for buying in, executing, etc., if all they're asking Andre to do is rebound and defend, then he's done just as he was asked, for the most part. This is Max's primary purpose as well, but his lack of size will always hamper his ability to do both. This is a league of matchups, and playing an undersized 4 against (very often) players 6'10 up, that's just asking for trouble.

    Coach keeps talking about playing the hot hand, but when Brandon was hot, he went with Rodney at the end (Cavs). When Greg is hot, he benches him for looooong stretches, even in favor of an often ice cold BoT (a few). When Max had 0 boards, he goes with him at the end of the game as opposed to Andre who'd been rebounding well (Brooklyn). The team's been losing games lately specifically because they can't grab the crucial end of game rebounds - Philly, Brooklyn, Toronto, etc, and yet they keep going to the poorest rebounding lineups and seem to expect different results. I understand that it's difficult to balance trying to win with developing players, but it's a lot simpler when one doesn't arbitrarily throw players in there with no regard for what's needed on the floor at the time. An example of this is inserting Stuck in the game earlier than anyone when the SL already struggles enough with the lack of spacing given Knight and Kyle are the only guys that are capable of helping with the floor spacing, what with Tay's propensity for pump fake hook shots. It also reverts to the lineup that lost us 8 straight games at the start of the season. It's just frustrating to see them go to the same thing over and over despite proof that it doesn't work. I don't mean to imply I know better than coach, because I'm sure he's forgotten more than I know, but his actions just don't seem to line up with what he's been saying and it's a concern.
    Oh and if, as TaS speculates, they're doing all this tinkering to once again cater to Rodney "Perennial Rookie" Stuckey...:gaah:They've put the ball in his hands a lot more, even with the starting unit, and it's not like he makes good enough use of the weapons coach tries to give him with the revamped second unit - he always does the same thing regardless, and no one else really touches the ball (yes, I know those "weapons" are as on/off as he is, but it's not like he's doing anything but drive, drive, drive). It really feels a lot like deja vu, eh?

    Edit: Sorry for being long-winded, just needed to vent a wee bit.
  16. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I feel like it is Drummond that allows Frank to play CCG and Daye. The first game I saw it it reminded me of the Howard/Turkaloo/Lewis Orlando Magic.
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  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    It is strong 2nd unit or bust for the Pistons. If Joe could just find a Vinnie Johnson type to come off the bench then that group could really shine.

    Going into the year my only concerns were how strong the 2nd unit would be and are they going to be able to find enough shots for Kyle Singler.
  18. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    If Joe makes a tape of Austin Daye playing last night to send out to other GMs...he should edit the tape so it only shows that 3 pointer he hit, the 1 board he snatched up and the part where he appears to be giving some wise advice to Drummond.
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  19. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    The flaw with this team is the head coach and his inability to do just that..." coach" this clueless turd has single handedly cost the team at least 4 games with nosedive lineups to finish games. The only thing he could do more obviously to lose games would be to tell his team to stay in the locker room. I have followed this team for over 20 years and we have had worse teams, but I cannot remember a team that had a player with Drummonds talents that would keep him on the bench, and I cant think of a team that was worse that the coach would refuse to at least try his youngsters....even if its just to see if their enthusiasm would be infectious to the other players. I am for the first time in those 20 years watching games just to see how long he keeps his job. I have given up expecting any of our youth to play, I have resigned myself to the fact that we will have drummond with barely a half season of experience and that experience will have been with the scrubs instead of any players that will be part of the future so the chemistry is worthless. and we will still have 2 very raw rookies to go along with whatever high lottery pick we get this year. We have found the Matt Millen of the nba folks and guess what town he lives in?
  20. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That and 18-30 from the line pretty much sealed it. The tape has made it's way around the league and everyone now knows to pound the Drummond.

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