The Josh Smith Debate

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Kerghan, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. Kerghan

    Kerghan First Round Draft Pick

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    Let's look into our crystal ball for a moment and pretend we see Josh Smith wearing a Pistons jersey.

    Many will praise Joe Dumars for taking a big leap and bringing in an uber athletic, do it all wing player in the prime of his career and making a push for the playoffs.

    Just as many will crucify him for his short sightedness, desperation and waste of FA money on a player who doesn't make you an instant contender.

    So why there is there such a huge divide when it comes to Josh Smith, not only here in Detroit but across the league.

    Expectations.

    Everyone can see that outside of LeBron James there is no other player in the NBA who has his combination of athletic gifts and do it all abilities.

    Josh Smith is Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Vince Carter.
    There is nothing that Josh Smith or any of those other guys couldn't do on a basketball court, except lead their franchises to championship glory.

    But if someone said to you, you can have any one of these players in the prime of their career on your team would you really say no even if it seemingly wasn't a perfect fit??

    Does everyone think that signing one player is going to cure all the teams ills?
    There could be countless more moves this franchise makes not only this off season but next and beyond to completely change the makeup of the team.

    Hell it isn't your money that is being thrown around here.

    This isn't a scenario where Rasheed Wallace walks through the door and is the missing piece of an already established championship puzzle.

    To not want a talent like Josh Smith to me just seems incredibly foolish.
  2. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    The problem isn't about whether or not would cure all the team's ills, it's about whether or not a max or near max contract would limit the Pistons options in the near future. What happens if he doesn't pan out, and when Drummond or Monroe are looking for a paycheck the Pistons can't retain them because they are paying huge money to a player that has flaws in his game?

    Or, what if the team comes together and there is one piece missing, but they have too much committed to short term solutions to be able to make a move.

    I honestly don't know about Josh Smith. But I am nervous about signing someone just to shake things up. I feel like that's how we got Gordon and BOT, and both of them took away from the overall success of the team.
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  3. Rocastle

    Rocastle Bench Warmer

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    Not sure and I may be wrong, but we can match any offers both Dre and Greg get for their next contracts due to their RFA status? So we aren't in danger of losing either of them until they are reaching the end of their second contracts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  4. Mark V

    Mark V Bench Warmer

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    There is no denying Josh Smith's talents, and I don't think anyone debates that. However, I just cannot picture him meshing with Andre and Greg since he's not much of a shooter since the lanes would be pretty clogged. To top it off, we don't have a pure point guard to feed him the ball.

    It would be a lot of fun to watch Josh, Andre and Greg swat shots from left to right but I'm scared that if we give him anything near a max contract we would handicap ourselves and we'd be stuck in that land where you're not bad enough to get a lotto pick but not good enough to make the playoffs.

    I also feel uneasy about not getting a pick this year where there's supposedly 5 to 6 elite players coming out.
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  5. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I'd rather have Josh Smith over Rudy Gay. But i'd rather have iggy over smith. I'd be disappointed if we missed out on these 2nd tier guys (CP3 and dHO being top tier). I'd really like to develop the Monroe/Drummond front line. They need a lot of time and opportunity together.
  6. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    The problem is at what cost? Its easy for us to all say pay the fine for going over the cap, but not many teams are going to be able to justify it.
  7. Kerghan

    Kerghan First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree with all of you guys with regards to money but I also think you need to be pro active and take the best players you can and worry about details in the future. Shooting is important sure but our 04 team didn't have much in the way of shooting at the 3 either and they did just fine. No one is going to mistake Tay for a dead eye shooter but he brought so many of those intangibles everyone raves about that it worked. Just like it could with Smith.

    Also count the number of rookies on the team and think how many will actually be here when we are fighting for a title.
    There is so much wiggle room with this roster I think if you can get either Josh or Iggy even if it is slightly overpaid (i agree no max) then I think you have to go for it.
    Worst case if you have to give up the likes of Monroe you are going to be able to pull another major asset for him. One which may in fact fit the team better. I just don't like the idea of letting a major talent slip away just because today's fit doesn't seem perfect.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The thing that got me over the mental hump on Smith is the realization that Smith/Monroe/Drummond make up the greatest PF/C rotation in the league. 32 minutes per game for each of them without Smith ever needing to slide to the SF spot.

    JS averaged 35.3 mpg last season.
    GM averaged 33.2 mpg
    AD averaged 25.7 mpg as a starter in his last 10 games

    That totals 94.2 minutes compared to 96.0 total available minutes in a game of bball at the PF and C spots.


    So, not only would JS make us incredibly athletic, but he would eliminate the need for us to carry players like Maxiell, Jerebko, Villanueva, etc. IMO not much need for backup big men in this case since if one of these 3 ever gets injured, we aren't winning anything significant in the playoffs anyways. You would of course need GT depth, but you'd roll with cheaper backups like the Heat.

    And the bonus is that JS CAN play SF in certain circumstances. Let's say that we find ourselves matched up against the Heat in the playoffs for instance (1st round of course...). We slide him down to SF and play big ball. Also, the poor shooting, super D lineup has problems on paper, but it's never been tested. Maybe it works great and we consistently win ugly games 75-68 (circa 2004).

    My dream is Iggy and Smith due to their offensive and defensive flexibility. Since Iguadala can bear starters minutes at 2 positions, he also shortens our rotation in the SG/SF positions in the same way that Smith and Monroe do at power positions and allows us to match up against small or big teams. And in situations requiring stops in crunch time, we could put the best defensive lineup in the league on the floor.


    For these synergies, I'd overpay and feel comfortable with it. Would be nice to keep Calderon, but not necessary. Knight/Bynum/Stuckey/Siva could all be interesting with those teammates.


    Also, just take a minute and think about the offensive rebounding. Every missed shot is like a no look pass.
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  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    What some people call a "missed shot" is really just an AOTG.
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  10. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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  11. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Hee hee.

    But you're right. I know it's probably not going to happen, but amnesty Villanueva (we suggest this move so often it should have its own name by now), sign Smith (4 years, $55 million) and Iggy (4 years, $48 million). Re-sign Calderon (3 years, $10 million). The starting lineup would look like this:

    PG Calderon
    SG Iggy
    SF Smith
    PF Monroe
    C Drummond
    Off the bench, you have:
    1 Silva
    1-2 Knight, Stuckey
    2 Pope
    2-3 Singler, English
    3 Middleton
    3-4 Jerebko
    4 Mitchell
    5 Krav

    It's not a great shooting team, (Calderon can light it up from the outside and Iggy and Smith are average 3-pt shooters at best) but that could be the strongest defensive squad in the league (probably the best rebounding one).
    Defensively, they have Iggy and Smith that can shut down the perimeter and Drummond to shut down the inside. Monroe is an average defender and Calderon is probably a liability, but it's a very strong group overall. Need to lock the other team down? Go Silva/Pope/Iggy/Smith/Drummond and you give up nothing for second-chance points, and basically go with a drive/crash offense that drags out possessions and gets Calderon and either Smith or Drummond into the paint and keeps three guys back. Back on defense, Silva can bring that get-in-your-face energy off the bench (Lindsey Hunter style), and everyone else is a very good rebounder for the position. Boring as all hell to watch, but probably pretty damn effective at cooling off a hot team.
    Offensively, they'd need some good X's/O's coaches on the bench that can design some good offensive schemes to utilize Calderon at the top, Monroe in the middle, Drummond low, and Iggy/Smith getting picks and backdoor cuts. This seems like something fairly simple to scheme for, so Iggy and Smith would need to work on their mid-range jump shots in order to prevent teams from packing the paint, but their main offense would be to get turnovers and rebounds and get out in transition.
    As for the rest of the squad, Pope, Knight, Singler, and to a lesser extent Jerebko can give them some outside shooting off the bench, but this is a squad that does not shoot well from three point land and that will be its weakness. But compare them to the 2004 Pistons (that team was 16th in the league that year in 3fg%, last year's Pistons team was 18th) and you can see that a team is capable of winning without great outside shooting. The key would be team rotations, because balancing those would be absolutely key in maximizing team effectiveness.
  12. jayborne

    jayborne Bench Warmer

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    That type of mentality is exactly how you bungle a rebuild. Also, the league isn't the same as it was in 2004. You need shooters to space out defenses.
  13. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Nice shot chart. Is it yours?
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  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Imagine the shot chart of our opponents! It would be purple everywhere.
  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    We keep saying that the 2004 title team was not a good shooting team, but I'm not sure I agree with that other than Big Ben.

    Billups had range and he earned the nickname "Mr. Big Shot"
    Tay was a serviceable shooter, especially in those days.
    Sheed had range all the way out to the 3 pt line and his fadeaway in the low post was a thing of beauty.
    As for Rip, I would say that in his prime he was the best mid-range shooter in the league.

    The point is that other than Big Ben, everybody else had a shot the other team had to respect. The opposing teams couldn't dare anybody to shoot the rock. Our problem last year is that we essentially had 3 players on the offensive end (Stuckey, Maxiell, Moose) who were as crafty shooters as Big Ben was, and our go-to shooters were Knight and Singler! We could've played 5-on-4 and the other team still would've stopped us.
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  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Don't forget about Okur... another stretch PF.
  17. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    FINALLY!!!! Somebody who TOTALLY gets it!!!!
  18. del

    del Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Empty the bucket?
  19. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    No no no no.

    No no no no no no no.

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  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    1986 Lakers averaged 117 points per game while shooting .330 from 3-point land (one of the greatest offenses ever).

    Last season, we shot .356 from deep and averaged 95 points per game.
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