State of the Pistons - Dec 19th

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. blueadams

    blueadams Team Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    150
    It's a good point in the season to step back and take a look. What do we have? What do we need to get rid of? What do we need?

    What we have?:

    #1) A. Drummond. Couldn't be more pleased with him. Looks like a "Franchise"-type player to me that we can build around (remember, it sort of takes two to win an NBA championship now). I think he'll be the best true center in the league next to Dwight in a few seasons (Bynum's not gonna last much longer). A+ asset we've got right here.

    #2) G. Monroe. I like Greg. But, honestly, I think he's a little overrated. He gets a lot of points and rebounds, but, IMO, it's really just because someone on our team is inevitably going to. Still, he could be a starting 4 alongside Drummond on a championship team. Probably shouldn't be expected to be more than your #4 scorer though.

    #3) B. Knight. I'm pretty "meh" on Knight. There are flashes of brilliance. But, obviously, so so many things he needs to improve upon. Being optimistic, I'd say that he could be the starting 1 / #5 scorer on a championship team.. but that is being optimistic.

    #4) R. Stuckey. Hasn't improved one bit since his rookie season, and perhaps has even regressed a little bit. Starting to get up there in age a little bit too now, and has a big contract. The potential - and thus trade value - is gone. Still, good enough to be the first guard off the bench on a championship team, and a combo-guard at that.

    #5) K. Singler. Probably never going to be talented enough to be a starter on a championship team (on one without 3 super-stars at least). But he's talented enough, and the right kind of player, to come off the bench and be a role guy on a championship team.

    #6) J. Jerebko. I don't know what he's done to get in Frank's doghouse, but I hope that he'll be able to get out of it, and - like Singler - I too think that he's talented enough, and the right kind of player, to come off the bench and be a role guy on a championship team.

    That's it for what we've got that we can move ahead with, IMO. Now, getting into..

    What we need to get rid of?:

    #1) T. Prince. I hope we can find a contender willing to take on his contract. I've felt this way about Prince for a long time now. I think he's a horrible team-leader. I think he holds us back. I hate his on-court demeanor. I hate the level of energy he brings to the court. I hate the lack of work he puts in (weight room?) in the off-season. I don't care if he was the 5th best player on our championship team, and neither should anyone else. I want him gone. Out of here. Free up more PT for players that might actually be able to get a championship here. Bring in a better veteran leader, or leaders.

    [FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]#2) C. Villanueva. Again, hate his on-court demeanor. The level of energ[FONT=Calibri]y he brings to the court. The lack of hard work in the off-season. I want him out of here ASAP. Amnest[FONT=Calibri]y him. Unlike Ta[FONT=Calibri]y, he can't even pla[FONT=Calibri]y D or contribute offensivel[FONT=Calibri]y.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    #3) A. Daye. See Villanueva. Only difference, let him walk as a FA.

    #4) C. Maggette. I don't think we brought him in here to be a long-term piece. Nor do I think he is a long-term piece. Let him walk as a FA. That being said, I'd rather have him here than the aforementioned three.

    #5) J. Maxiel. I like the effort / intangibles that Max brings. I just don't think he's much of a player. Not very good on D. Not good enough on O to make up for it.

    #6) W. Bynum. Same deal as Max. Like his effort. Game's not enough. Let him walk as a FA.

    #7 / #8) K. English / K. Middleton. Who knows. Who cares. Might end up being good enough to make the team. Might not. It doesn't really matter.
  2. blueadams

    blueadams Team Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    150
    What do we need?:

    It's quite simple, really. We need a new starting SF, and a new starting SG. One of these guys probably needs to be our #1 scorer. The other probably needs to be our #2 scorer. Both need to be at least adaquete defenders. One needs to be a "Franchise-level" player. It'd be nice if one of them could really be a guy who can take the ball to the rack. It'd be nice if the other was a really great outside shooter.

    Free agents? Meh. It's gonna be tough for Detroit to attract the kinds of FA's we need in this regard. So, let's look to the draft.

    Looking at the 2013 Mock Draft, I don't really see a wing player capable of being a true "Franchise" player. But I do see someone who meets the other criteria. A great outside shooter, adaquete defender, #2 scorer, etc. Ben McLemore, from Kansas, is someone who I believe fits this bill in the '13 draft (compared to Ray Allen).

    In the 2014 draft - even harder to project - but.. it has several prospects who meet the bill. We'll of course need to suck again to get one (better than a top 8 pick and we lose it to CHAR). I, of course - as I have for a while now - think we need to tank in order to get our franchise player. Let's hope that Gores is smart enough to force Joe-D and Frank to do this. Shouldn't take THAT much effort. But, getting back to the prospects...

    Andrew Wiggins (compared to Scottie Pippen). Jabari Parker (compared to Carmelo Anthony). Noah Volleh (compared to Jamal Mashburn). James Young (compared to Michael Redd). Andrew Harrison (compared to Dion Waiters). Mario Hezonja (compared to Rex Chapman). Six of the top eight projected picks are wings!! Let's get ourselves one!!

    Future Team?:

    C: A. Drummond, *Veteran FA
    PF: G. Monroe, J. Jerebko
    SF: A. Wiggins, K. Singler
    SG: B. McLemore, R. Stuckey
    PG: B. Knight, *Veteran FA (and/or PLEASE trade up to get T. Burke!! - Knight insurance)

    ...that's, basically, what I think we need to do.
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    17,000
    Likes Received:
    2,476
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    It's interesting to think how many teams have 3 borderline stars and can't win a title.

    We not only need Drummond to realize his potential, but we need to either draft or acquire at least 2 more players that will play at an all-star level.

    Monroe's passing doesn't get fully utilized yet and he does a lot of things well, so I could see him being a piece. Keep in mind the stat from yesterday that shows that with Monroe and Drummond on the court this year we have had the highest rebounding rates on both ends of the court. That to me signals that we have 2 guys that could serve as a Championship foundation. They are certainly young enough to give us time to build around.

    Knight is pretty decent for his age and price. I don't think we know where his ceiling is yet and I think that we can keep him around until we find out. We know where Stuckey's ceiling is and it seems to be as either a starter on a mediocre team or as a 6th man. I would keep him because of his unique skill set and use him as our long-term 6th man.

    Bottom line is that we'll probably get another good draft pick and will have to do the rest through trades and free agency. All of that is on Joe to make the right decisions. He was brilliant in the past, but was horrible in the '06-09 timeframe. I'll forgive him lately for buying out Rip, reversing the BG mistake, and making some solid draft picks. But we just really need him to be a top 3 GM if we are going to return to glory before he gets fired.
    Walter likes this.
  4. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,829
    Likes Received:
    987
    Joe's January magic will be to trade Maggette and a protected 1st rounder for Ben Gordon and hand JMax a 28M/4y contract.
    kpaav likes this.
  5. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,567
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Gender:
    Male
    Nice writeup ba. The one thing I don't agree with you is Moose being the #4 option on offense. I see him as #2. If he's not your second option, why bother having him on the floor, because his value is not on the defensive end for sure.

    I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but I think instead of two high-scoring wings, we need a bulldog defender that can handle the perimeter defense and a stud scorer. With Moose/Drummond we have a very nice foundation for the frontcourt and like you said, Knight can be serviceable at the #1 spot. Get a prolific scorer SG to replace Singler and a Lebron stopper at the SF and we're golden.
  6. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,305
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Totally agree. If Moose is more effective at scoring, he'll be even more dangerous with his passing. He was a much better offensive rebounder last year in the beginning.
  7. The Panda

    The Panda All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,732
    Likes Received:
    826
    Gender:
    Male
    I think you forgot how efficient moose was on offense. Scoring lots of points wasn't why everyone though he was underrated.

    It was because he had a PER of 23, on a scrub team, where hardly any of his points were off assists. He has a nose for rebounds, and is a talented scorer. He can work the post real well, he just needs to move to the high post, rather than low.
    Nemo likes this.
  8. blueadams

    blueadams Team Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    150
    Well, 1) I think it's better to have 4 good scorers on the court than 3, or 2. 2) I don't think Monroe's a 'below average' defender at the 4. He's not a great athlete, but he's big, strong, plays hard, is smart, and will continue to improve in that regard. He's also a good rebounder, which to me, is part of defense.

    It'd be ideal if one of those scorers was a great, anti-LeBron type defender as well. Sure. First and foremost, however, we need them to be our #1 and #2 scorers. We NEED that. If neither of them is a great defender, use all that cap-space we're going to have on someone who can come off the bench to defend studs.
  9. blueadams

    blueadams Team Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    150
    Bottom line, if we're going to have a chance to win a championship anytime soon - we MUST, MUST, MUST, M-U-S-T, MUST tank the next two seasons and get two very high draft picks. If we're going to be able to compete with Miami and OKC for the next decade, we MUST do that. There's no other way. We're never going to be able to attract the kind of FA's we need in that regard. Never. Bottom line, we MUST. I think we're either too stupid or stubborn to do that though, which, well, SUCKS.

    In terms of FA additions. I'd like to see us sign..

    #1) A great team-leader big-man. Someone who can really show Drummond and Monroe how to play the game. 110% effort type. Hard-nosed. Tough. Smart. Sound offensive knowledge (moves and what-not). Sound defensive knowledge (tricks). Leader. Good citizen. Etc.

    #2) A great team-leader point-guard. Someone who can really teach Knight how to be a great all-around NBA point guard. Many of the same qualities mentioned above.

    #3) A stud wing defender. An anti-Lebron type. The qualities mentioned above would be wonderful as well.
  10. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    14,139
    Likes Received:
    2,330
    Location:
    Michigan
    You guys are forgetting someone......

    [​IMG]
  11. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,733
    Likes Received:
    741
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Howard Stubb's garage
    Let's come out and call it what it is....sandbagging. TRG could be winning some games for us.
    linwood and BallDon'tLie like this.
  12. linwood

    linwood All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,283
    Likes Received:
    1,217
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Earlier in the season I was thinking sandbagging, but then I read somewhere that there is an agenda that doesn't involve winning. Tomayto-tomahto?


    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    coynejeremy likes this.
  13. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,567
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't understand why we can't play Slava for a few minutes at the end of losses. There's got to be room for a Human Apathy Cigar.
    kpaav, alexa032, Nemo and 2 others like this.
  14. J-Train

    J-Train Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    240
    Here's what I see.

    Andre Drummond- He's on pace to be a 12/12/3 guy this year, if given starter's minutes. I would expect his scoring to increase by a couple buckets, just with some experience playing with his teammates and within this system. That's a 16-17 ppg/12 rpg/3 blk guy, without any post offense, free throws, a 10 foot jump shot, pick and roll game, or any plays run for him. If he adds ANYTHING to his game, he's a 20+/12 guy. He could be the best player on a championship team. If you're excited about the future of this team, then it's because of him.

    Greg Monroe- He looks to be what I thought he was. Is he a 16/9 guy, or an 18/9 guy? We'll see. I do believe that he's more of a high post 4, who can play some 5, than a low post five who can step out and play some four. So, I think that his new role in the offense will probably pay dividends in the long run. He looks like a very solid third best player on a championship team. Maybe the second best player, if your #1 is Lebron.

    Brandon Knight- He's one of the more polarizing players on this team. Most people love him or hate him. I see him as a 17/8 guy. He has a great three ball, can run the break, and is a respectable defender. If he can work on his pick and pop/ pick and roll game, then he'll be a nice #3 player on a championship team.

    The rest-

    Rodney Stuckey- He is what he is. He's nice score first PG for the second unit, as well as a back up SG who can get to the line. He's a nice first guard off of the bench on a championship team.

    JJ- He's a 15-20 minute combo forward on a championship team.

    J-Max- He's a great for 15 minutes, good for 20, and barely serviceable for more than that. He is a nice player to have, especially with teams going small, and using "power threes" like Lebron and Mello at the four.

    Singler- He's just a good player. With today's CBA, your going to need guys who will play for cheap. There's not enough cash to pay five studs and bench guys. He could be a low minute starter on a championship team, if the other guys were good enough.

    That's it.

    This team has nice players. They just don't have enough of them. While Drummond could be one of them in the future, there is currently no #1 OR #2 scorer on this team. Their best two players are too young. They simply do not have the firepower to compete on a nightly basis. I believe that I read that they are something like 3-21 when their opponents score 90 points. That basically means that when they do win, that it's luck, more than anything.

    This team needs to draft a stud wing scorer, and let their three young guys grow over the next two years. I think that they'll probably make the playoffs next year, and make some noise the year after that.
  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,567
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Gender:
    Male
    J-Train, when you say you see Knight as a 17/8, do you mean 17pts/8assists or 17pts/8 TOs? :MusicBigGrin:

    In all seriousness, I think you're on the money as far as assessing what we have. I would probably swap Maxiell with English on that list, as Maxiell's production is going to decline year after year once he signs his next contract this summer. This year is the peak year for his career I think.

    English has the potential to become a Doug Christie/Bruce Bowen/Lindsay Hunter/Arron Afflalo/Thabo Sefalosha/Tony Allen type player. I don't want to give up on that guy yet.

    TBH, I think the first step this team needs to take is to trade for a STUD wingman who would be our #1 scoring option. And this guy has to be a good shooter - we don't need any more slashers. Also, preferably not an FA acquisition, mind you, as we would be overpaying in that scenario. Second priority would be to trade for a hard-nosed defender.

    My dream would be to turn any combination of Prince/Maggette/Daye/CV/Bynum/Maxiell/Singler/English/1st round pick into Paul George/Tony Allen. A lineup of Knight/Allen/George/Monroe/Drummond would be pretty sweet.
    Mogilny likes this.
  16. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    257
    Any trade that brings us Tony Allen is a plus in my book. If it allows us to get out from under BoT's awful contract/any combination of Daye/Tay/Bynum? Even better.
  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,310
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    It seems like all the Pistons post-Going to Work dreams might have a chance if they played Monroe and Drummond together. Wouldn't the small ball/3-guard lineups work?

    At least they'll get defensive rebounds if they play those 2. They can't do that now. Why not go gimmicky with the other 3 positions to get shooters on the floor. They've got the guys on the team, why not use them until you can get better ones?

    The Pistons offense is terrible now. So is their defensive rebounding (another reason the offense is so bad) and defense (another reason the defense is so bad). Playing Monroe and Drummond together would improve the last 2. I don't see how it can hurt the first. The pieces just seem to fit better around those 2.

    It can't be that hard to get 3 offensive players on the court. Knight can drive and shoot. So can Bynum (again in theory). Stuckey can drive. Tay, Singler, JJ, Daye, CG, English. Most of those guys can offer something on both end of the court.

    This team will not win a championship but I think it would give them a reason for being.

    Let the role players, i.e. 98% of the roster, play a role.

    Please.
    Nemo and roscoe36 like this.
  18. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,829
    Likes Received:
    738
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Saginaw, Michigan
    My 2 Cents:
    When I step back I like what I am seeing. We're banking on 3 players right now: Knight, Monroe and Drummond.

    I really don't care too much for Brandon but I think he can work his way into a solid 16-18ppg PG in this league by his fourth year when he's going after his MONEY contract. I'm still game for trading him but not so adamant about it.

    Greg Monroe's (in)ability to make a consistent jump shot (a la Antonio McDyess) is the key stone to this team taking the next step. A pick and pop play around the free throw line is a go to play. Either the G comes off open, or Greg pops out open at the high post. If Greg is open he needs to be able to take and make that shot, if the defense closes out he can put the ball on the floor, or he can dump it into Dre. Right now when he catches the ball he hesitates to take that WIDE OPEN shot and it hurts this teams offense. He needs to be a great PF and the great PF can shoot with consistency out to 18 feet, Greg HAS to be able to do this. As the season continues to progress he's taking and making more outside shots, just not enough, but there is improvement.

    Andre Drummond continues to get better, period. And while we dog out Little Larry the truth is....Drummond is getting better, so while the "plan" may not equate to wins it is equating to the improvement of Andre Drummond and in the long term that's what we need.

    While I don't like Rodney Stuckey he is beginning to come into his own as a combo guard off the bench, let the record show that I (along with others) have been clamoring for this to be his role for about 3 years now.

    Kyle Singler is just a good solid basketball player and he's actually the kind of player that we desperately needed as Tay's backup during the glory years.

    So let's assume the 3 key pieces are legit, what do we have, a PG, PF, Center, a 3rd guard off the bench and a backup wing in Singler. We need a stud wing scorer, unfortunately none are available via free agency anytime soon. I really like the kid at Georgetown, Otto Porter (SF), I think he'll be at least as good as Tayshaun and he's one heck of a defender, with him and Dre together, watch out! I think if we can somehow get OJ Mayo as our starting SG, we could have a solid 8 man rotation:
    PG: Knight / Stuckey
    SG: Mayo / Stuckey / Singler
    SF: Porter / Singler
    PF: Monroe / JJ /
    C: Drummond / Monroe
    The Panda, BillLaimbeer and Nemo like this.
  19. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,829
    Likes Received:
    987
    Yes, as much as I wanted him to start from day 1 it's getting pretty hard to argue against the Dre "plan". The development is ahead of everything anyone not named Brap expected.

    Unless Dre becomes as dominant as D-Ho the ceiling of this team is the Atlanta Hawks imo.
    brofmfa likes this.
  20. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,310
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    How has this "plan" helped Drummond "improve"? He's put up better #'s because his PT has gone up by 2-3 minutes.

Share This Page