Starting 5 for 2010-11

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by chillfan23, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I've been watching T-Mac when he's in the game, and he's very good at getting the ball to his teammates at their sweet spots (Monroe by the basket, Gordon at the 18 ft range etc). He and Monroe are also starting to develop a really nice pick'n roll game in case anyone noticed. T-Mac is a very crisp passer too. I really would like to see him get paired up with Rip.

    So, how about we start:

    T-Mac-Rip-Prince-Wallace-Monroe

    Many people have mentioned that a Wallace/Monroe front court is probably one of the best we can muster right now. I think that T-Mac's ability to draw double teams and good passing can really allow Rip to do his thing and also open the floor for Prince.
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Still got ample time to play Daye - as long as Bynum does not play. Note, despite supposedly shortening the rotation, Kuester has played Bynum quite a bit.


    However, yes, Bynum, to an extent, has been cut out. Look at the 2nd quarter of the last game. Bynum was in for only 5 minutes. We got a huge lead in that 2nd quarter. In the 4th quarter, Bynum did end up playing the whole quarter, but we had a huge, huge lead five minutes into that quarter and there was simply no reason to pull him out of the game at that time.


    Meanwhile, if Bynum, who contributed absolutely nothing to that game could be slated for 10 minutes - then why not Daye or Summers instead, either of whom could have actually contributed something? Now, the argument could be made that we need an emergency point guard, and keeping Bynum minimally involved is more important than keeping Daye or Summers involved.


    That I don't buy. I say use Gordon as the emergency point, with Tay helping him out. Move Bynum to street clothes, only activating him if one of the point guards ahead of him is sick or injured.


    Meanwhile, use that 10 minutes available - to develop our youth - Summers and Daye. Or just one of them. But don't keep to of our better players just rotting on the bench so that Bynum can get time. Bynum playing will never equate to getting us any wins. Summers and Daye - absolutely they can help us win games going forward - play them.


    One final note - Monroe is playing. That is good. So Kuester is not at a zero on youth development. However, he is not ahead of any of his recent predecessors on this. I say getting a D grade, when a B grade is easily in reach, is something to be avoided. Playing Monroe, and playing one of Summers or Daye 10 minutes a game would give that B grade.



  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    As of right now, TMAC is looking to be our best player. Time to acknowledge that and move him to the starting unit - where he can then play a bit more - in four stints with rest in between. To this end:

    Start: Rip, as defensive point guard, Prince, as defensive shooting guard, TMAC, as defensive small forward and offensive point guard, Monroe at power forward, JMAX at center. Yes, weird to have our center be the shortest guy out there - but it should work just fine.

    Bench: Stuckey at point, Gordon at shooting guard, Daye at small forward, CV at power forward, Big Ben at center.

    Involve Summers as the 11th man. Have Wilcox dressed for a spare big - if he has any health left in his back at the moment. Only dress Bynum if an injury to a point guard ahead of him.

    Sometime soon we will have to be auditioning White. It would be nice if we were in the midst of a winning streak to where we can get him minutes without worrying if he would lose a game for us. And dressing White - instead of Wilcox, would make us one heck of a team from 1 to 12 on the roster.
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    This team is gradually morphing into the team I would have started the season out with except for one major exception - Summers would be getting a lot of CV's minutes.

    And on the other hand, when possible, CV would be taking Ben Wallace's minutes.

    Look at that 2nd unit that started the 2nd quarter last night: Stuckey, Rip, and Daye, three guys who started the season as starters. Then JMAX, who played much of this season as a starter. And Monroe, another guy who started several games this season, and someone who most wanted to see start from day one. Fine 2nd unit.

    Starters: TMAC, Gordon, Tay, CV, Ben Wallace. This pairs up two players who have typically been successful together - CV and Gordon. It pairs up two bigs - one with toughness who can rebound, and one guy with length. Weakness: Low fast breaking ability.

    Oh, and it pairs up Tay with TMAC, something many of us saw early as a necessity - someone to help TMAC bring the ball up the floor.

    Trying to change this starting unit would be difficult. Changing JMAX for Ben Wallace for instance would leave too little rebounding. Monroe for Wallace leaves too little toughness.

    And trying to improve your offense by taking Ben out - does not work if he just plays later in the game.

    Anyway, now that - at least for one game, won't put it past the Q to totally mess it all up in no time - its kind of hard to think of anything improved over what we got. (And for those of you who believed Wilcox was any kind of answer - I remain skeptical as to his health. When he does stay healthy for any length of time - I will believe it then.)

    Still - here is something different at least. Just a competing idea.

    Start: TMAC, Rip, Daye, Summers, Monroe

    Why - defense.

    2nd unit: Stuckey, Gordon, Tay, JMAX, (CV or Ben Wallace)
  5. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    I can see Summers on the second unit in place of JMax but not in the starting line-up. I like CV starting and would like to see Monroe instead of Ben. Let Ben play alongside Summers on the second unit to help him out and see how that goes.
  6. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    Nothing's morphing, IMO. Stuckey's been ill -that's all. When he comes back it'll be the same old same old - no minutes for Daye.

    I think this is really dumb - Daye should be playing meaningful minutes every game, like Monroe is, and like Summers should be.

    Rip and Tay should be sat down or traded. Maxiell should be a deep bench guy - only. Ben Wallace is pretty much done. McGrady is playing great - and he should be traded.

    The truth is we need to make way for the future.
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Pairing CV with Monroe gives no toughness inside. So that is why I chose Summers. Summers is a very strong player. It does not hurt that he can shoot 3's.

    As for CV,yes, he is doing better by far than last year. But he is still not a good defender. We are winning 1/3 of the games letting CV play, hoping his offense can overcome how bad his presence hurts our defense. It ain't working so far. Time to give Summers some play.

    As for playing JMAX less - along the same lines - you need defense to win games. The Pistons really don't have anyone on the team right now playing better defense than JMAX. Until they do, nope, JMAX stays in the rotation.
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    What about

    Starters: Tmac, Rip, Tay, Monroe, CV.

    2nd unit: Stuckey, Gordon, Daye, Ben, some Summers.

    Lot of length in that starting unit. Monroe can provide the bulk inside while CV can do the scoring and some rebounding. Also try Summers out to see what he has.

    What to do with JJ when he comes back? Maybe there will be a trade by then.
  9. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Rotation for the playoffs:

    Start Gordon, Rip, TMAC, Monroe, Ben Wallace. TMAC plays the point, with two good shooting guards to feed, along with Monroe cutting in, or living in the post.

    Monroe is young, and seems to thrive on minutes, so you can count on him as a large part of the bench too.

    2nd unit: Stuckey at point, Tay at shooting guard, Daye at small forward, Summers at power forward, Wilcox or JMAX at center. Of course, you have Monroe playing a lot with the 2nd unit too.

    Rest of the bench: White, finally healthy, the only other guy dressed. JJ, CV and Bynum are in street clothes.
  10. jayborne

    jayborne Bench Warmer

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    [Jim Mora]Playoffs?[/Jim Mora]
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Going tall. The other day, I do believe for a bit we played Ben Wallace, our center, as the shortest player of our five out there. We had TMAC running the point, Tay and Daye in, Monroe and Ben Wallace for the bigs.

    Here is a rotation that simply leaves out anyone under 6-5.

    Lets say White gets healthy, and he plays so well, especially on defense, that he supplants BG out of the rotation. Meanwhile, Rip is simply not missing any shots, and has reclaimed the starting spot. (Hopefully, even if White is really good, BG still manages to beat out a rookie for playing time - just a what if here.)

    And Ben Wallace? We just decide to give him a rest for a bit to recharge prior to us entering the playoffs. For bigs, we go with Monroe, Wilcox, and Summers.

    So: Start: TMAC, Rip, Daye, Monroe, Wilcox.

    2nd unit: Stuckey, White, Tay, Summers, Monroe and Wilcox playing some with the 2nd unit.

    I tried to fit CV in here, but since he can't play tough interior D, can't rebound, and can't rotate defensively - he simply does not pair up well with any of the other 3 bigs I chose. (Matter of fact - only Ben Wallace makes sense paired with CV)

    This all leaves out Bynum, Ben Gordon, Ben Wallace, JJ, JMAX, and CV. of these five, assuming JJ is not playing this season, I'd dress Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, and JMAX. Bynum and CV can join JJ in street clothes.
  12. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Going strictly defensive:

    Ranking our players by defense: (just defense, not rebounding.)

    Ben Wallace.

    JMAX

    Summers

    Rip Hamilton

    Prince

    Monroe

    JJ (won't put him in a rotation though since he most likely won't comeback from injury this season.)

    TMAC

    Stuckey

    Daye

    White (just a guess - never have seen him play)

    Gordon

    Wilcox

    Bynum

    CV

    Using the top 9 for a rotation: (again, not including JJ)

    Start: TMAC, Rip, Daye, Summers, Monroe

    2nd unit: Stuckey, Rip and Daye sharing backup shooting guard duties, Prince, JMAX, Ben Wallace

    Interestingly, the 2nd unit, which would often be Stuckey, Rip, Prince, JMAX, and Ben Wallace, did play last year, winning the first five games I believe, as our starting unit. (and then doing very poorly after that)Yeah, pairing Ben Wallace and JMAX can mean too little offense - but for a 2nd unit - it should be just fine.
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    By rebounding:

    (None of this is by stats, just my opinion based on what positions they play compared to the rebounds they get.)

    Monroe

    Ben Wallace

    JJ (not including him in a rotation due to injury)

    Wilcox

    TMAC

    Daye

    Tay

    Stuckey

    Rip

    White (again, guess only)

    Leaving Bynum, Gordon, JMAX, CV, Summers out. (and JJ)

    Using top 9 (JJ not included.)

    Start:TMAC, Rip, Daye, Ben Wallace, Monroe

    2nd unit: Stuckey, White, Tay, Wilcox, Monroe and Ben Wallace playing some with the 2nd unit.
  14. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    One more for tonight. Not recommended. All offense:

    Rip

    Gordon

    TMAC

    Tay

    CV

    Stuckey

    Monroe

    Daye

    White (once more, just a guess)

    Leaving out Ben Wallace, JMAX, JJ, Summers, Bynum (because he does not pass the ball - most teams can shut him down knowing this weakness), Wilcox (yes, Wilcox shows flashes here and there, but for the most part - I am still not sold he is fully healthy such that he can contribute consistently good offense.)

    Start: TMAC, Gordon, Rip, Daye, Monroe (TMAC is the power forward defensively, offensively he is the point guard.)

    2nd unit: Stuckey, White, Tay, CV, one of Daye, TMAC, or Monroe playing with the 2nd unit.

    Again, not recommended. Guys like Tay, Daye, TMAC, playing as bigs ain't going to get it in the beef department. The other team would outscore in the paint heavily most nights.
  15. jayborne

    jayborne Bench Warmer

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    Interesting. Going by strictly Defensive rating, Rip and Summers are two of the worst defenders in the NBA. Summers hasn't played 100 minutes yet this season, but his DRtg is just as bad as it was last year. This could just be a function of the minutes he's actually playing, but if he's playing garbage minutes he shouldn't be allowing points. On the other hand is Rip who, statistically speaking is a pretty bad defender. His DRtg basically took a fall toward the bottom half of the league once Larry Brown left, even while the Pistons were one of the league's better defensive teams.

    Interestingly enough, our top 3 defenders by that same measure would be Ben Wallace, Greg Monroe, and Charlie Villanueva. And Villanueva is around just about average.
  16. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I looked at no stats. I just went by the fact that I watch all the games, and note who is playing good D. Who is rotating properly, etc. Whether a player can play good D against bigger, or quicker opponents.

    Note again, I looked at rebounding separately. I am sure most defensive stats don't separate rebounding from defense. I do, cause I know you can put a good rebounder in with a good blocker outer and be just fine. Not everyone has to have the same skills. The skills just have to complement each other.
  17. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    The newer advanced stats is often cut up into offense, defense and rebounding.
  18. max

    max All-Star

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    What would that be - Cherry Picking? i.e. putting himself in a better position to run back on offense.
  19. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree that Rip's defense has gone down steadily the last few years. He gambles a lot, loses his man, gets blown by, etc. I haven't watched Summers closely enough to rate his defense. I'm not even sure what his best position is.

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