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Should we keep Cbill#1...?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TheeTFD, Jul 24, 2006.

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Keep C. Billups?

  1. YES, no doubt about it

    57.1%
  2. YES, but I draw the at $20mil. per

    19.0%
  3. YES, so we can sign and trade

    16.7%
  4. NO, Dumars can find interchangable Point Guards.

    7.1%
  1. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    Ben may be a weak man to man defender but he is by far the best help defender in the game. Many times he was out of position to make a play on his own man because he had been covering for Billups or Rip who let their men blow by them routinely, depending on Ben to clean up their messes. Watch this year and see how many bunnies we give up. It's going to be ugly. When Gary Payton is blowing by you at 37 years old you are not a good defender. Sorry.

    Billups can not run a fast break to save his life. That's what I meant by bad decisions. He is good in half court sets, I admit readily, and this is why he had a good ratio on assists to TO's. And he can usually shoot the lights out. He choked in the playoffs.

    I am not buying the tired excuse. He choked. Plain and simple. And after hearing him stroke himself all year and alienate the rest of the squad with his MVP talk it is very very weak to blame fatigue.

    I can't defend this Piston squad anymore- their pride and arrogance has made them all expendable. Billups leads the way in the department- one thing he is truly the best at.
     
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Larry Bird and Kevin McHale played 35~38 MPG all season and went to the Finals 4 times in a row, playing almost 40MPG in the playoffs. That was of course before long playoff TV timeouts.

    I AM EXHAUSTED from reading that Billups was tired.

    He plain old got outplayed, and his second half statistical efficiency and shooting slide hit rock bottom in the playoffs. That's why I say he is no MVP.
     
  3. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    so.

    that doesn't mean that billups wasn't tired. if he says he was tired then he was tired. nobody said if you're a great player you can't get tired. shaq gets tired how come chauncey can't get tired??

    i say he would have kept having a mvp year had joe dumars kept his backup pg on the roster. you can't deny the fact that when arroyo left billups game went south. i don't think arrogance caused it at all. he didn't plain old get outplayed. he was put in an unfavorable position by his coach.

    when anderson verajao goes off on you i don't think you can consider yourself a great defender. shaq dominated ben consistently. ben didn't give much help either cause lebron, wade and whoever else had a layup line with ben down there so i don't see the difference that ben is going to make. ben had 1 block in the ecf.

    the rules change makes it hard to defend on the outside. i never said chauncey was a great defender. i will say that what he brings offensively makes up for his defense. when ben's defense slips as it has been doing for the last few years he has nothing to make up for it.

    he wore out in the playoffs, he didn't choke that's a different thing. if chauncey choked then what did ben do?? the guy you think we should have broke the bank for.

    billups is the one player on our team that can do the pull up 3 point dagger. i always think a wide open 3 for chauncey is a good decision. we aren't a fast break team so that's why chauncey fits us well.

    fair weather.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Shaq fights in the post against double and triple teams. He's also old, out of shape and gets hacked all game.

    Billups does not. Chauncey is a jump shooter first and foremost. He doesn't rebound or man up. Plus, he's younger than Shaq, and before the last 4 years, hardly put much wear on his tires.

    Sorry, I'm not buying it. Tired? Isaiah Thomas is rolling over in his grave.
     
  5. DirtyMoney

    DirtyMoney First Round Draft Pick

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    I do believe that point guards get smarter as they get older. Other positions rely more on physical abilities.
     
  6. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    FAIR WEATHER??? that's not cool. I am a Piston fan since I was 5 years old, and I will die a Piston fan. That doesn't mean I am willing to defend every player that passes through town on their way to a max deal. 27 years I've been pulling for this team. I'm on the board at 11:45 p.m. in the dog days of summer. fair weather? please.

    I said pay him. or trade him. just don't let him walk. that's my position. what about that is fair weather? if anything it's being A REAL PISTON FAN. I'm not into player fan clubs. I am into Piston basketball.

    but I am not going to lay on train tracks for Billups. MVP is what he called himself. Wade wasn't tired.

    Jay- I can understand you defending Billups. I like him. I feel you. If Joe wants to pay him I will be happy. I'm just thinking they won't pony up the dough. I'd rather they man up to that fact and trade him than lose him for ZIPPO.

    But, I can't understand letting Ben walk and paying Billups. I think he we be moved.

    Oh--- one more thing. Lot's of fair weather Wallace fans in this town. Not me. I still rock my number 3.

    peace.
     
  7. max

    max All-Star

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    Yes that was very dissapointing reading that Billups was tired.

    The Celt core went deep for around 8 years in a row. Pippen played in 6 out of 8 NBA finals with 2 ECF's mixed in.

    Overall the Piston run is just as blip in history compared to what other players had to go through.
     
  8. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    i'm still steaming, Jay, about this fair weather business.

    I haven't been posting much here since grand opening because my life has been crazy. But I've been reading. And I remember you from detnews. Your one of the only dhof members I respect. you're a fan. Watch me over some time and when you feel the vibe, you got to say yo, sorry.

    that fair weather business is my biggest peeve about fans. in or out. real or fake. but fair weather fans are a bother to me. hello arroyo fans.

    anyhow. it's cool.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't think there are many fair weather fans here in the middle of July. Of course, the real test is to see who is here in August! :D
     
  10. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    I have really enjoyed this thread. And Robert Michael, I think that you are bringing a lot of thinking to the table and stimulating very good discussion from all. I have enjoyed all the comments. We are talking about the future of the franchise without the hype.

    Not paying Ben or letting him walk for nothing or Ben got mad or whatever happened hurt this franchise. How much? I don't know. But we are in a weaker position.

    A lot depends on how well we stack up next year in general and Billips year in particular. I am willing to let the poor playoffs go because I know that Billips can shoot. But I am concerned that he may have lost a step on his drives as he was really contained. I am also concerned that his own arrogance may follow that of Ben. I would like to see Tay a focal point of the offense more and I wonder if Chauncey will go for it. Ben wouldn't sit down for Davis/Cato because he couldn't guard Shaq.

    As far as money, everything depends on context. Ben should have been signed not because he was worth it but because the alternative to signing Ben (what we have now) is too iffy. On Chauncey, if the Pistons do not have a stellar year, it is even less likely that the Pistons will pay out big bucks for him. First, he will get major bucks--that is probably a given--more than he is worth like Ben. But, if we are not at a championship level next year, not sure there is a pressing reason to retain him. There was a pressing reason to retain Ben and that is why there must be more to Ben's story than what has been released--must be.
     
  11. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    roscoe, why do you think Billups has questionable Pistons DNA?
     
  12. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Cro, are you saying we/he has to listen to banter back and forth all year as JD and others haggle over is value? I'd really like to see CB locked down for 4 more years. Like the Prez.

    RobMic and BBeer, isn't a S&T more risk with the payroll? Say we sign BBeen for too much, would other teams have the players to equal his contract value? And isn't that part of the GM game, to make sure other GMs aren't skating with money and talent? Plus JD is up to his neck in bodies now. Like he said this aint Fantasy GM.

    Is there a truth in signing clause? Do you have to tell the player we will trade you as soon as the deal is right? Yeah, yeah, we want you to be part of the family...go buy a house. As soon as the door closes...any of you guys want this cat?
     
  13. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    you saying all the pistons are expendable to me is why i called you a fair weather fan. they lose a couple of years in a row and now it's time to get rid of everybody.

    i understand what you are saying now that you are a fan of the team and i apologize. i connect the players with the team so the success of the team to me is linked with the players. i like the pistons so i like the players. i dislike ben as a player but i will admit that this guy helped us get a championship.

    wade is a different body type. billups carries a lot of weight around for a pg. billups doesn't have a superstar to defer to during the games and just take over at the end cause you're well rested. i believe billups when he said he was tired. he's never been known to choke before. he always steps to the line and knocks them down when it's crunch time. he always takes the last shot of games. that isn't a choker.

    i agree not just letting him walk. joe wasn't going to let ben walk either. i think ben gave joe verbal assurance that he would sign with the pistons. joe wouldn't have made that darko trade if it was iffy that ben was going to sign. a trade involving ben would have gave us what we needed for the championship run. the trade involving darko made us weaker and we got nothing but a middle first round pick for it. now we have nazr as our starting center.


    i still rock my darko jersey.
     
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    have you ever shot an nba 3 pointer? you can't shoot that with no legs. when your legs go you start guiding it with your arms. so you aren't just shooting anymore you are thinking about it. tired affects a jump shooter more than a post player or slasher.

    billups is heavy. he isn't flabby big but he is one of the bigger pg in the league. he was playing heavy minutes so it's understandable for him to wear down. chauncey doesn't rebound but he does chase quick point guards around during the game. that takes energy too.
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I have never shot a 3 pointer in the NBA. I have shot 3 pointers from the NBA 3 point line. A lot.

    I am familiar with fatigue affecting shots, but I am unfamiliar with a Detroit All-Star PG being fatigued 8 games into the playoffs.

    It wasn't that the 3s were falling. It's that he was nullified for stretches by Eric Snow.

    @ hack - I don't see or hear the drive to win. He leaves me with the feeling that coming up short is disappointing but there is always next year or the year after that. I have yet to hear him take personal responsibility for how he played in the Finals. Not how the team played, not how the opponent played, how he played.

    If you want to be the highest paid player on a team, at the PG position, and expect to be included in the MVP balloting, then it is incumbent on the player to lead. Superstars don't point at the bench and say, my backup doesn't rest me enough. I've never heard that before.

    The line in "The Replacements" by Jimmy McGuinty (paraphrased) comes to mind. "When the game is on the line, winners want the ball."
     
  16. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I'll make it brief.

    Robert Michael, I'm very impressed with your postings. I think you have done a great job of articulating your position and I can't find disagreement in any of your comments. I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

    BBalljay, ..... Never mind. lol!

    Chauncey doing the whole song and dance about being tired, yet mumbling about how he is the best player on the team makes me want to vomit. I've liked Chauncey for most of his stint as a Piston, but his mind doesn't sound quite right these days. The passion to win seems to have escaped him a bit and it is reflectant in his second half/playoff play. Sure Arroyo, could have helped, but he's needed to suck it up like every other supposed "all-star" out there.

    "I said pay him. or trade him. just don't let him walk. that's my position"

    I couldn't have said it any better myself Mr. Michael. Bravo!
     
  17. easybuckets

    easybuckets First Round Draft Pick

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    If C B takes the blame then how about Dirk?? I feel the favorable treatment of the Heat stars in the playoffs could suck the life out of the opposition. and I think it did. If you know the calls are going to be against you and you can't even complain, it's got to affect your play at some point...Even Sheed finally gave up arguing any calls cause they all knew it was pointless....Things need to change..Wade Shaq and A I go more calls in..2004 2005. and I think probably in 2005 2006. Go to nba.com and look at the free throw attempts..look at the difference between the heat regular season and playoffs.. all of a sudden Shaq didn't foul as much??? NOT...
     
  18. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i never thought about that angle. i guess chauncey could have been tired of the nba bs too. i think that probably compounded his fatigue. it's hard to dig deep into your heart and pull out every last bit of energy when you know a few well placed whistles will make all your effort for nothing.
     
  19. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    What will be enough for you? You're so unappreciative. Because it allows you to be critical. What are you a Virgo?
    I remember during the season when the Pistons had their Air Jordans on the leagues throat and were raining jumpers to the point you were choking on your grule in disbelief. Some people were saying this is fine for the reg. season but not for playoffs...they were right. Teams play harder and the last 20 games of the season they try to ramp up for seeding.
    But not the Pistons. They came out both guns blazing.
    And who lead the charge? Who demanded HCA!?
    Who took HCA?!
    So who's fault is it that it didn't work out? He had the league by the balls and we were the favorites. Some/Many thought he was MVP! Must have been playing over his head! Riles had to step in to make sure the Heat didn't blow it! CB put fear into the league! He was not taking prisoners!
    So the success undermined the system as BBeen couldn't deal with being ignored. I don't agree with abandoning him on D. On O yes. He should have evolved with the team and just went to work.

    But why did Tay resign? Because he saw the best chance to win was with CB and his Pistons. Who helped us sign Sheed? Who threatened to kidnap one of his kids if he didn't sign?! Who Cro?
    Our 'ship was a fluke! RonRon cracked. Kobe's head exploded! Mailman came up lame. The Mitten no longer cared! The Pistons played over their heads and won. With great coaching I should add.

    They fought their way to the finals again where a knuckle-headed move cost them a game and maybe the 'ship. But did they crack? No they regrouped and took the league by storm. So CB clapped his hands about himself. After all he's been through I don't blame him.
    Let's give him another chance. Money be damned.
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    CB is a great guard and the only remaining captain who didn't abandon the team. You don't get rid of a guy who EARNED the name Mr. Big Shot when he is still peaking. I can't believe this is even in question.
     

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