Round 1 Game 4 - Detroit at Milw 8:30pm Mon May 1

Discussion in '2006 Playoffs' started by roscoe36, Apr 30, 2006.

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  1. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    I'm confident Ben will bounce back (hey, he's rested for a change), but if he doesn't have a great postseason this could get interesting. The Joe Dumars who evaluates playoff performance is very cold-blooded compared to the Joe D. everyone loves the rest of the year. Just ask Stack and Cliffy.
     
  2. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    And he played some good D against Redd when the game was hanging in the balance in the 4th quarter. It was frustrating that his shot wasn't falling, and he probably did take too many of them at a couple of times, but he also made a good adjustment at other times by getting to the hole and drawing fouls.
     
  3. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Looks like Ben was more frustrated with the refs than anything else last night. From the Free Press game wrap:

    I wish Ben could have played through it better, but he really was getting the shaft from the refs. There was one possession where he got called for a touch foul on Magloire, and after the Bucks missed their next shot, Magloire put two hands on his back and SHOVED him out of the way for the stickback...with no call, of course.
     
  4. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    We are giving up way too many points. The D really has to clamp down.
     
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Delk and Hunter were both +7 in 7 minutes. That is what I mean by doing their job. Bogut was -4. 6 fouls and 7 points. 1 for 6 at the free throw line.

    Here is what really jumps out at me though. In game 3, Tayshaun was a -31. In game 4, he was +15. That is a 46 point on the floor differential from one game to another. Redd had good games both times.
     
  6. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    ben got hosed by the refs last night. he got one call early on one the first play of the game, and then he got dumped on every other time. thankfully dice is awesome, and our bench as a whole shot 11/15.

    delk couldn't guard redd, but he did foul him several times and didn't allow him to take jumpshots. i think that was big in taking redd out of his game, and i commented earlier in the year when delk first joined the team that i loved how he didn't let guys get layups.

    it's weird that we now have some offensive sparks off the bench instead of just defensive sparks. evans and delk have taken good shots, not forced anything, and shot very high percentages...in fact i think they're being underused.

    the bench has come to play this series and have really stepped it up when some of our starters were off.
     
  7. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    Looking into the possible future, the Mavs are taking care of business and with blowouts They look like a scary matchup with that offensive fire power.
     
  8. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    +/- is almost completely meaningless. And I've thought the bench effort - aside from McDyess - has been lacking. Evans had a good Game 1 when they kept doubling off of his favorite spot but has been invisible since then (racking up points in Game 2 garbage time at a phenomenal rate notwithstanding), Delk hasn't gotten nearly enough shots for my liking, Delfino and particularly Dale Davis - DD being the Pistons' second-best interior defender, something that's been sorely needed - continue to rot on the bench, and I've thought that Lindsey Hunter has been uniformly terrible. He takes about 18 seconds to get the ball upcourt, then dribbles around and jacks up a 3. I'm glad that the worst-shooter-in-NBA-postseason-history is making a few, but he kills the offense, and his defense is nowhere to be found (hello Mo Williams!).

    I agree with anakin about the Mavs, though. I've said since January that they're the best team in the NBA, and if the Spurs or Lakers don't take them out, we're in trouble. They're deeper, more explosive, and far better coached than the Pistons.
     
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Monday's Worst
    Bucks forward Andrew Bogut: The No. 1 overall pick struggled in the late going, missing free throws, throwing the ball away and fouling out. Finished with seven points at least.

    Daily Dime

    I don't know why I am seeing it so differently, but I really thought Lindsay has been awesome. He is exceeding my expectation by actually making a good % of his jumpers while playing great defense. The biggest run we went on last night was when he first came into the game.
     
  10. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    It's about time you gave that 1 oz. of love to Mayhem, he can hit some shots. Scarey thought is BBen may not be right for Flips system. Could be a change in a couple years.
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I think your analysis is lousy.

    Mo's scored 23 in 27 minutes, missing 3 shots and one ft in the process. He played mixed GT and with the starters in the Game 3 blowout yet was +11 (which you don't care about, because it frequently doesn't support your take, fair enough we all argue to the benefit of our points). So basically, he was a + player while the game was still in the balance. When most everyone else was not.

    The problem with Mo is that he is a WYSIWYG player. What you see is what you get. He doesn't inspire optimism that he could come in and get a key stop, or drive the lane to draw an AND1. You'll get some corner spot up 3s, the ability to finish in transition with a better frequency than Chauncey and doesn't waste his opportunities at the line.

    For a 9th man, what else do you want? In cold, limited minutes, makes shots, and hasn't turned over the ball in 4 games. Sure he's no Vince Carter, but he hasn't been an eyesore either.

    Delfino is rotting because his shot is broke. Period. It's been broke all season. He can slash, but frequently doesn't. He can jumpshoot, but misses more than he makes. If his name was Darko, he'd inspire sonnets and haiku about legendary one handed dunk blowing ability.

    Do I like one more than the other? Not really. I'm just happy Flip is playing the guy 8 minutes a game who produces and don't tell me that production is overrated because it isn't. That is why the Pistons brought in Flip. To put points on the board. To pressure teams at both ends of the court. To diversify the attack.

    Your analysis of Hunter is equally flawed. LH gets the ball up court in a flash. Where he runs into trouble is that he cannot execute a P&R, and indecision frequently leads to him picking up the dribble which stagnates everything. His scoring has been a pleasant surprise that I think you are underrating. 7.8 PTS in 11.3 MPG? How can this not be considered efficient?

    Pro-Rate both of their numbers to 30MPG , lose 15% for fatigue and most folks would still be impressed. Hell, Mo would be the league MVP.

    Some folks see Delfino move well, handle the ball great and make a jumpshot and then take a leap in logic that he's capable of more. The guys who can't handle, can't dribble, are apparently playing no defense are the ones affecting the bottom line in a tangible and measurable way.

    Speculation. It's not just for kids anymore.
     
  12. Pastor Flournoy

    Pastor Flournoy First Round Draft Pick

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    I don't know how we made it to the playoffs if AHB's analysis is correct? I also disagree with most of his commentary. IMO Hunter, Evans and AM are doing a great job off the bench. I wish Hunter would had been in more in the fourth to guard Ford. He seems to be shooting the ball way better this year in the post season. As far as Dallas sweeping Memphis.....lets remember this is Memphis third straight year of being swept out of the first round.
     
  13. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Sounds like a little cooking there.
     
  14. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Flukes and gimmicks.

    themicrowave, you'll note that Delfino was an afterthought. My main complaint was "particularly" about Dale Davis, who's probably better than the Ben Wallace we've seen so far in the playoffs, but can't get off the bench. I know it helps your rhetorical position to have a theme to play off of, but please don't presume that everything I say is about Delfino.
    I still think Mo Evans is a lousy basketball player, but he's played extremely well against Milwaukee this season, and I'm happy to see him get more minutes if only because Tayshaun can't handle 45 minutes a night.
    He is not "producing" consistently. He's "produced" in one game of the series so far, unless you really care what he did in a shootout against Jermaine Jackson and Jiri Welsch when the Pistons were behind by 20.

    As soon as the Pistons play against a coach better than Terry Stotts, Evans's corner three-ball is going to dry up. But against Milwaukee, I'd be thrilled if Evans could get 8 minutes instead of 3.
    No, he doesn't. He can barely dribble and takes forever to advance the ball under pressure. The shot clock is frequently in single digits by the time he is in a position to do anything (not counting his "fastbreak" attempts). His decision-making is flawed at best - and while I agree when you say his "indecision frequently leads to him picking up the dribble which stagnates everything", he does not face problems running pick-and-rolls. Indeed, the vast majority of his scoring comes off high screens, and he even gets the ball to McDyess on the pick-and-pop once in a while.
    Does it matter? He's a defensive specialist who's failing at his job. But even so, while his scoring is a nice bonus, it comes at the expense of running through the offense. Offensively, he's Carlos Arroyo minus the ballhanding and passing ability, and defensively - he's been Carlos Arroyo, stupid and-one fouls and all.

    Yes it is. Concern with "production" at the expense of playing well is an extremely dangerous position to take. As I said earlier, flukes and gimmicks abound, but they don't win in the long term.

    There's no such thing as WYSIWYG, no matter how many stats the APBR lunatics can invent that pretend to quantify "WYG". There's only WYS, and everyone sees what he wants to.

    I really don't want to argue about the relative merits of being a slappy or a perfectionist, so I'll close by saying that I respect your opinion. Everyone has the right to take his pick according to his prejudices.
     
  15. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    for anyone interested in tempering the emotional ups and downs of playoff basketball, i thought i'd take a moment to share my current approach to the issue:

    stay in the present. the game that matters is the one we are playing. winning that game is what matters. more points than the other team is enough offense. less points than we get is good enough defense. winning the series we are playing is what matters.

    when and if cleveland, or washington come, when and if new jersey, or indiana, or miami or chicago come, when and if san antonio or sacramento or dallas or the clips or phx or lal come, that is when -- i tell myself -- i'll concern myself with whether we are scoring enough and keeping them from scoring enough points to beat those teams in each game as it comes and whether or not we need to make adjustments in order to score more points than we allow against those teams.

    no doubt there are other approaches, and some might not even care for any approach. that's cool too.

    but for now, as far as I'm concerned, we're up 3 to 1 (with two of the last three games at home) against the only team that, in the present, can stop us.

    :)
     
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I really haven't been a LHunter fan at all. I know that he has a role as a defensive specialist, but I always moan when he takes any shot.

    Maybe that is why I am so impressed. Recently, every time I moan, the ball goes in. In the 2nd quarter, which was the only real time he got yesterday, he was 3-4 shooting and +5. If he was bringing the ball up so slow and a total failure on defense, then how did the Pistons manage to outscore the Bucks during this stint? His fellow teammates were Rip (0-1), Tay (0-1), Ben (0-1), and McDyess (1-2). Half way through, Delk checked in and was 2-2. It was ALL Lindsay and Delk. However they did it, I want them to keep doing it.

    And Mo Evans... He only played for 2.1 minutes and took 1 shot. I like Delfino, but he doesn't seem to excel in 3 minutes bursts like Evans. There aren't many players capable of coming in cold and hitting shots.

    All in all, I had a terrible feeling about the way that game was going and I'm glad we found a way to pull it out. The refs were calling too much (69 free throws in the game) and the Bucks were making too many contested shots.
     
  17. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i like the way you're thinking. also everyone should remember just how hard it is to win on the road in the playoffs, regardless of the team. the pistons are barely cracking .500 in the past 3 years.

    hopefully everyone sees now how important homecourt advantage is :D
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Too bad. I want to argue. :P

    Shooting well all season is not a fluke or gimmick.

    He should be. He's rounding into another disappointing draft pick. When a guy struggles, he needs minutes. When a guy comes in and produces in short minutes, he's a fluke. Double standard.

    Yeah, lousy basketball player who has played extremely well this series. Certainly worthy of disdain.

    8 points in 6-1/2 minutes, 2nd quarter of Game 2, when the Pistons put on the big rush to takeover the game. 3 Points in 3 1st Q minutes of game 3 to rest Tay, even +/-. NINTH MAN. So almost half his scoring (didn't bother to check the other 2 games) comes before the half. Well before Jackson and Welsch.

    Really? He seemed to nail the one last night with a hand in his face.

    Defensive specialist. Like spot up shooter. Like Possession Receiver. A nice little stereotype the player has to conform because of a typically false perception that he is incapable of more. In an offensive series, Hunter is contributing offensively.

    Can you explain how to produce at the expense of playing well? Is a 3 rebound per game player a better rebounder than a 10 rebound per game player? Is a 50% shooter worse than a 38% shooter? Am I wearing my boxer briefs backwards?

    At the end of the day, you have to score more points to win. All opponents are not equal, but points scored is the great equalizer. When Mo hits more 3s than Rip or Tay in 1/6th the minutes, that's what I see, and what I get.

    How soon we forget last year's Hunter who couldn't score a hoop, or lack of a SF option which necessitated playing small ball with a 3 guard lineup. The scoring woes of a bench that couldn't produce.
     
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Rank
    Here is the points scored per 100 possessions in the playoffs this year:
    1. Detroit Pistons120.9
    2.San Antonio Spurs119.3
    3.Dallas Mavericks 116.5
    4.Sacramento Kings 112.9
    5.Milwaukee Bucks 111.8
    6.Chicago Bulls 110.6
    7.New Jersey Nets 109.6
    8.Miami Heat 107.1
    9.L.A. Lakers 106.6
    10.Washington Wizards 106.5
    11.Phoenix Suns 105.7
    12.Indiana Pacers 104.1
    12.L.A. Clippers 104.1
    14.Cleveland Cavs 102.7
    15.Memphis Grizzlies 101.2
    16.Denver Nuggets 95.6

    Surprise surprise, Flip's high scoring system has translated into the playoffs.
     
  20. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    ........are u high?:nod:
     
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