Pistons Vs Pacers ~ April 9th, 2006

Discussion in 'April 2006 Games' started by Superstarov, Oct 2, 2005.

  1. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Was Cato the one who couldn't back his man down, or was that Davis? Either way, Cato's kind of a poor man's Jerome James. Keep eating, big fella.:eyebrows:

    An American friend of mine and I were playing a drinking game: one for every time your man gets burned. He represented Mo Evans for the Pistons, and I got Scrubarunas Jasikevicius. My memory of who won is kind of fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure he finished the first glass before I did. :ohwell:

    Delk continues his hot streak, and Lindsey had the second of his twice-a-year hot shooting games. Dice was quietly productive off the bench. Rip got banged up, but had a decent game - especially on the defensive end - against Stephen "Ooohh Yeaah!" Jackson. All of our bigs did well against Jermaine O'Neal, who finished with 6 turnovers and gave up at least as many offensive rebounds. A quiet game from Tay and Chauncey.
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    I meant in size alone. not sure how productive he can be - we will see.

    At this time I slightly favor Maxiel for the final spot.
  3. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Oh, yeah, he's definitely big. I was just wondering if he's one of those 300-pounders who doesn't have the strength to establish position, or if it's just conditioning. Either way, I doubt we'll ever call on him to be an offensive force.

    I wish Flip had given Maxiell a few possessions on Shaq one of those games to see how well he could hold his ground. Actually, I wish Flip had given all of the bigs an audition instead of DNPing the lot. Cato is a huge stiff who's not useful for much more than committing fouls on Shaq - but the Pistons' defensive strategy doesn't call for Shaq to be fouled, so I guess I'd prefer Max too, even if he'd be nothing more than a victory cigar.
  4. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Ok guys I won this one. 12 pt blowout is better than anyone elses guess. Pace are officially scrubs.
  5. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Pretty hard to imagine you're still standing. Seems like anyone being guarded by Jasikevicius just went right to the rim with him. I was starting to feel for the guy.

    Nah.
  6. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Seem to recall a lot of bragging coming out of the Pacer's camp about Jasifjgfdguyrrd..... how ya doing Ski?
    That boy make Arroyo look like the DPOY....
    Just shows the discrepancy in Euro talent and here... he was like the top PG overseas..
    Of all the Euros entering the league I can only think of three that can defend...AK47, Pietrus & Darko (when he's not taking flying lessons).

    Was that Lindsey drinking out of the fountain today?

    Did Delk restore our bench this year?... boy was I wrong about him.
  7. BigDaddy

    BigDaddy First Round Draft Pick

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    Looks like the Ben tirade took effect hopefully we crush into the playoffs. Demoralized the Pacers,maybe they will fall out of the playoff race or maybe even better we see them first round sweep em' and watch JO be cryin:hurt:
  8. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Everybody knew that Jasikevicius was old and tremendously slow - that's why wasn't drafted in the first place. He's a winner, good shooter, good passer, etc., but he's not a good enough athlete to succeed in the NBA. I don't think Bird allowed himself to realize just how slow the guy is. And while there have been a number of stereotypical European players who can't play D, that's true of most Americans as well. Most players simply aren't good defenders. To expand your list of "Euros" who play above-average defense by NBA standards: Boris Diaw, Tony Parker, Andris Biedrins, Marko Jaric, Beno Udrih, Viktor Khryapa, Sasha Vujacic, Pau Gasol, and - I don't care what his reputation is, or how soft he is, he's at least a decent defensive player - Peja Stojakovic. And most of the "South American Euros" are pretty good defenders, too: Ginobili, Delfino, Nocioni, Barbosa, Varejao, Najera. Add in the "Chinese Euro", Yao - one of the top defensive centers in the NBA - and I'd say that Europeans play defense in approximately the same ratio to their general population as Americans do. I don't think anybody expected Jasikevicius to be one of those good defenders, although maybe some people didn't think he'd be that bad. But while I think you have a mistaken perception of "Euro talent", you're definitely right about the Euroleague. It's essentially comparable to NCAA basketball, and the defensive attitude is a lot more lax than the NBA - hey, even Mo was an All-Star MVP in the Italian league.

    Delk is a flat-out scoring machine, and an above-average defender in his own right. He's Mike James without the over-the-top egomania. I don't know if he's restored the bench, and I'd really like to see him play more 1 than 2, but he's a nice addition. As for Lindsey - the fountain is a mirage. Sorry. He'll be back to his 1-for-5 self by next game. (:fingerscr:ohwell:)
  9. max

    max All-Star

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    ahb - there was a lot of pre-season hype over Jasikevicius. Even though he was 31 at the time and tried to join the league the previous season to no avail, mainly because of defensive concerns, he was all the rage. Every analyst who picked the Pacers cited him as one of the reasons. I never understood it. Winning that Euro tournament impressed everyone.

    When you look at his stats he is not doing too bad but still a far cry from replacing R.Miller which is one of the real reasons why the Pacers are struggling. Losing that team leader has hurt the Pacers.

    As everyone knows they also have had a ton of injuries. Jermaine O'Neal still does not look right.
  10. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    I think the Pacers brought the hype to him instead of vice-versa. As you say, nobody would take him in previous years - even when he was a multiple-time champion - and even after he killed the USA team in the Olympics, nobody cared when he was rumored to be interested in Detroit and Cleveland and Utah (Utah?). Nobody cared when Arvydas Macijauskas, who was even more impressive in the Olympics, signed with the Hornets. It's only when noted racist Larry Bird and his media darling Indiana Pacers show interest that it becomes a sexy topic of conversation. Gah.

    I completely agree that losing Miller's leadership has hurt the Pacers the most. The main problem is that the Pacers powers that be have tried to force JO into that role, and it's just not one he can accept. As for the injuries - they always have a ton of injuries, but that never stopped them from playing with some degree of heart. Tinsley is a complete joke, and O'Neal seems to be getting more and more injury-prone by the year - but they were on last season's team, too. Reggie Miller was a stabilizing force. Dale Davis helped a lot last season. Even Ron Artest, demonstrably insane as he is, is a leader, and leads by example. Jermaine O'Neal - as he as much as admitted just today - is nothing but a talker, and is considerably overrated as a player.
  11. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

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    At one time the rest of the pacers were freezing him (Jasikevicius) out Stephen Jackson especially. They have zero leadership, and RC has no control of the team imo. I think they will get swept in the first round regardless of who they play and they will implode. That team is in a crash and burn state and we can thank Ron Ron 4 that
  12. max

    max All-Star

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    Thats not very productive. Why would they do that?
  13. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Man between Delk and Dyess and Hunter, the bench looks competative. I liked what they brought.

    They had good ball movement for most of the game and that left the Pacer defense rotating wihich allowed Ben and Dyess open lanes to the glass. Guys always seemed to make the extra pass and a few times it was a little too extra but you gotta love that teamwork. The ball went through Ben's hands a lot and he moved the ball well. Add to that his offensive rebounding and kick out and he contributed greatly to the teams offense.

    Dyess was all over the place. He brought a lot of hustle and energy. As a fan I felt confident when he came in. Hunter bit a few times on pump fakes and fouled Jaskksksks on a three point attempt but he was on fire on the other side. He owned Sarunas on both ends.

    I liked how Prince attacked the basket...especially the baseline spin from the low post. He was part of a balanced attack that didn't have to keep going to the same option the whole game. Delk is a good back up 2. Aggressive. I'd be more comfortable with a little better decision making/passing betoween Delk and Hunter but otherwise I like having them come in.
    I didn't care for Mo but he made as many good plays as he did bad ones.

    In the second half, the pistons played a good stifling brand of defense that took JO out of the game. Good effort level overall.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Perhaps Shine can jump in anytime here as I have not watched a ton of Pacer games.

    Seems like the owner is active and cares about his team. So we should see a lot of changes over the summer. Perhaps even firing Bird and Carlisle. Not a popular move to fire Bird but what has he really done?
  15. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    The same reason Jackson screamed "Oh yeah!" after dunking when his team was down 20+. It's a completely dysfunctional team, and some players don't like passing to certain other players. I agree that Carlisle has found a way to completely alienate himself from his players, and at this point most of them seem to have quit, and arguably those that haven't are just auditioning themselves for trades.

    (Well, Jackson just doesn't like to pass, period.)
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    ahb - Can Bird and Carlisle be seperated or will the 2 have to be fired together? That is would Bird ever fire Rick?
  17. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    I'm hardly an expert, but I strongly expect that Carlisle will be fired/not re-signed unless there are huge personnel changes (i.e., at least the trade of Jermaine O'Neal) this summer. I don't know what Donnie Walsh will do with Bird, but "Larry Legend" hasn't done much in Indianapolis, and has as much to do with causing the current situation as anyone. I'm pretty sure that Walsh has resumed a more active role in the organization over the last year, and the final word would come from him, not Bird.
  18. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Identifying defensive talent is tough and subject to ones personal criteria.... Physical quickness, anticipation, mental capacity to recognize & react, physical strength and fortitude to break picks and hold position would be some of the important factors.
    Typically the Euros don't focus as much to developing the strength attributes required.
    I'm not going to comment on some of the names on your list... just ask that you reevaluate your opinions on what adequate defense is. The word "Soft" comes to mind.
    I will agree that some Latin (and African American) Euros tend to possesion quicker muscle reflexes which can be a key component to sticking with your man... I tend to believe that shot blocking is overrated...
    Kirilenko is willing to get down & dirty on "D"... Barbosa certainly has potential (sorry Bills) with his exceptional quickness & wingspan...
    I'll stick with the original thought that the percentages are low of good Euro defnders.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Jermaine O'Neal postgame quotes...

  20. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    None of the Argentines are Latino. Delfino, Ginobili, and Nocioni are probably of mostly Italian ancestry.

    A couple of final points:
    * I'm not talking about talent or potential or athleticism or physical attributes that can be extrapolated; I'm not trying to construct a perfect defensive player from a list of "important factors". I'm talking about history and demonstrated success. Leandrinho Barbosa is a very good defender. Tony Parker one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA.
    * If you consider shotblocking overrated, I find it curious that you think Kirilenko is a good defender. He's a poor-to-average man defender, like Gerald Wallace or Shawn Marion.
    * Softness doesn't necessarily have much to do with how good a defender you are. I would consider Tayshaun Prince a very soft player, and he's widely recognized as an above-average defender. Peja Stojakovic is an extremely soft player, but he's only marginally worse defensively than Prince is. Rasho Nesterovic is as soft as they come, but he's a huge improvement defensively over Nazr Mohammed, a more physical player.

    I'll stick with my original thought that the percentages are similar. I'm not sure whether Mo Evans counts as a Euro, that being where he spent most of his career, but he's living proof that there are Americans in the NBA who can be awful defensively. Or... take your pick. Jalen Rose? Vince Carter? LeBron James? Allen Iverson? Zach Randolph? Jason Williams and Dwyane Wade? I'd say that the majority of NBA players, no matter what minor leagues or nation they came from, are not very effective defensively.

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