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Home Phoenix Suns Saturday, January 11, 2014

Discussion in 'January 2014' started by roscoe36, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    I always listen to this song before I post in a game thread.

     
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  2. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    I wish I had data on the number of and-1's that Singler gives up. I don't, but will say that I don't recall it being a problem.
     
  3. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Singler just needs his own +/- thread.....otherwise this Suns thread will score a record number of posts to an individual game thread especially since the next game is not until Friday.
     
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  4. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Kyle Singler has fouled another player 3 times this year where they made the bucket and then converted the free throw (3 and 1's.). That doesn't qualify as constantly in my book.
    His total shooting foul rate is 3.7% compared to 3.2% for Josh Smith. That is a rounding error.

    However, I view that as a cost of guarding people and not a mistake. If you sag off your man like Smith, it's really unlikely that you're going to foul them.

    On the season, Singler's man has gone 17-60 from 3-point range for a shooting percentage of 28.3%. Absolutely spectacular. 2 of them came off of screens and 1 was a pick and pop. So, when he wasn't interfered with and didn't have to switch, his man was 14-55 (25.5%). For bothering his man that much, I would say that he does a phenomenal job of avoiding contact.

    In contrast, Smith has allowed his man to shoot 41-109 from 3-point range for a shooting percentage of 37.6%. That is not good.

    And fittingly, Smith's man attempts 3's more often than Kyle's man... because they have an easier time getting open and they draw up plays to take advantage of the mismatch on offense.
     
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  5. del

    del Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Good to get the win, but it glossed over our horrible last quarter. I can understand Mo wanting to try something different to finish the game considering how bad our 4ths have been, but those small ball lineups are ludicrous! And to stick with it after he saw how bad it was going was even worse. We were just lucky Josh hits that 3.
     
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    No, I do not go looking for problems with Singler. I primarily just watch the games for enjoyment, hoping the Pistons will win. What I share, is from what I see. If I see Singler get beat by a taller guy on one play, and later get put on the perimeter to get beat off the dribble, I will simply say what I saw. And I do lately count up the points Singler gives up for being too slow, and for being too short / weak as an NBA front line player.

    I will ask you this. You probably know I love seeing Pope get minutes. Do I ever pine for him to get more minutes by playing at small forward. No, never. Too slight for that position. It does the Pistons no good. I also pick on CV, whenever he plays, because he consistently fails to play defense. What you are seeing from me lately is very simpe, Singler is playing a lot, and there is a ton of bad plays he is involved in.

    In chat, anyone who is there will notice that if Singler does something good, I mention it. And if he does somelthing, or simply is incapable of doing something a small forward should be capable of, I mention that also. I am not putting any great emphasis on Singler beyound what his share of the problems are. Good luck with your next theory. Meanwhile, although you sound reasonable for most of your post, at the end you make statements that Singler is in fact a fine small forward. How strong is that sentiment of yours, and is it effecting your view of my criticism of Singler.
     
  7. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    I thought the problem was that he didn't tell them to stop switching in the post. Thats where we got so burned - consecutive plays of Jennings and Bynum being posted up because of a lazy switch on defense rather than fighting through the screen.
     
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here are how other top NBA small forward compare to Singler on 3-point defense and foul rates.

    Player: opp 3P% (details)/ PF rate per possession
    Singer: .283 (17-60)/ 3.7%
    Lebron: .313 (36-115)/ 3.7%
    George: .327 (33-101)/ 4.2%
    Batum: .333 (27-81)/ 4.5%
    Leonard: .333 (27-81)/ 8.3%
    Durant: .336 (46-137)/ 6.1%
    Korver: .344 (32-93)/ 4.6%
    Carmelo: .356 (37-104)/ 4.1%
    Smith: .376 (41-109)/ 3.2%
    Prince: .381 (16-42)/ 4.3%
    Barnes: .436 (24-55)/ 5.5%
    L Deng: .436 (24-55)/ 5.8%

    Nothing is unusual on this list except that Kyle Singler is statistically the best perimeter defender on the entire planet. The Pistons' quant department knows these numbers (100% guaranteed) and the information is fed to Cheeks.

    Would I trade Lebron or Paul George straight up for Singler? I could be convinced.
     
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  9. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    That's definitely interesting, however Singler has only been out there for a bit under half the attempts that George/Lebron have. Statistics need context too - Singler comes off the bench and is guaranteed to log at least a large percentage of his minutes against rotation players rather than starting units. I would argue that this numbers are probably skewed as a result.

    Having said that, they are definitely impressive. I agree that he is one of the more fundamentally sound defenders on our unit.

    To the more accomplished game watchers (I only get to watch maybe 1 in 2), how does our defense look when Singler and Pope are on the floor together? I imagine the perimeter defense is far better.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Which other nba 6th men are SFs? Would be interesting to compare. KS gets a lot of burn against bench players, but also significant time against their starters.
     
  11. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    That's kind of the story of our entire season. A complete inability to guard the pick and roll. Before they were switching Frye was getting WIDE OPEN looks from his sweet spot from beyond the arc. We took that away and then began to concede the Jennings/Bynum post up but not a single one of our bigs could defend any of their littles. Contrary to what others believe the coach HAD to adjust to them. Did it piss me off? Of course! But I was upset that we were just that bad of a team that we had to adjust. But who was Monroe and/or Drummond going to guard? It stunk to high heaven but they were burning us, just like every other team in the league. Maybe we should have put KCP on the ball since he seems to be the only player capable of fighting through, over or around a pick. I also thought that this was a perfect time to go with JJ and bench Jennings.....but there's no way Cheecks will ever sit Jennings down the stretch of the 4th qtr.
     
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  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If he allowed 50% shooting, I bet it would feel like a more significant sample.

    The only guys I could find with similar results in similar roles were casspi and hollis thompson. Both have recently received recognition for their defensive efforts with thompson going from d-league to starter. Casspi has been noticed by the advanced stats guys as being involved in combinations that have unusually strong defensive attributes.

    I agree with your skepticism instinct. It's unusual enough with singler though that testing it further by pairing him with the starters isn't that big of a gamble.

    Evaluating 34 Games of Omri Casspi - Red94 | Houston Rockets news and musings

    Casspi and thompson both play sililarly to ks. Disciplined and selective with smart defensive positioning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  13. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Fixed it for you.
     
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  14. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    With Rodney Stuckey (still) hurt, KCP is our only SG and Singler is our only SF. With that being said who is the other SF that should be playing instead of Singler? GiGi? JJ? Oh never mind, I forgot....Tony Mitchell....LMBO!!!
     
  15. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    To who? I actually agree with most of the insights you have posted. And that kind of defense would still get a tick from me if it was all in garbage time. I think that statistics need context to be useful - e.g I don't think that KS and Lebron/PG are incomparable due to the different roles that they play in the team and matchups they experience on the court. But it goes both ways - Lebron gives up more on a better team, Singler gives up less on a bad team. Is KS's skill being masked or skewed by our losing records (i.e +/-, AST%, WARP)?

    Singler doesn't pass my eye test as an NBA starter, but I certainly don't think he is worthless.
     
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That Laimbrane post about confirmation bias was one of the best posts I have seen in some time. I work on stuff related to biases all the time, and we all suffer from it.

    There is no such thing as perfect objectivity. It's important to understand that we all rationalize points of view that we have already formed an opinion about.

    If you never catch yourself being incorrect about something (which is unlikely since no one is perfect) then you may be dealing with some confirmation bias.

    It's not easy, but it's very helpful to test our own hypotheses and to step back and take a bigger picture view of things.
     
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  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    It's a bit of work to move this stuff, but we can if people want a Singler thread. I'm not really worried about this thread getting too big though. More posts is generally a good thing.
     
  18. Menace

    Menace Bench Warmer

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    I find a difficult to understand that one guy seems to have more knowledge and a different opinion about a player then a coach + assisitant coaches + a GM + an entire organisation. Especially when that person only watches TV footage while the rest is with the player 24/7 including practises.
     
  19. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I was just kidding....its just that you never know when there is a new post if we are still complaining about the "win" over Phoenix or is it a another Singler appreciation comment :whistle:
     
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  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The 3 point shooting disparity in volume and percentage is one of the worst things about our team this year. Removing Josh Smith from 3 point territory on both ends of the court is the obvious solution. Luckily, KS, the only candidate to replace him, is OK at shooting and is above average at defending the perimeter. Jorts might also help since he can spread the floor and take opposing centers out of the paint.

    More jorts with our driving guards might be a good experiment. Not sure how that would work out defensively.
     

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