Penn State

Discussion in 'Football, Baseball, and Hockey' started by detteam, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Did they even read the report?

    Funny, just about the only ones complaining about the Freeh report are Penn State alumni and sleazy lawyers. What a coincidence. No wonder it was allowed to go on for such a lengthy period of time.

    The majority of these people place football above everything else, and/or don't give A hoot that children are sexually abused either by fellow penn State alumni and/or unofficially sanctioned by these Penn State higher ups. And/or are bloody ignorant fools!!

    They are making Penn State look much worse every time they open their mouths acting like the knowledge of these horrific Crimes were isolated to one individual. Some of them still say they believe Sandusky himself is innocent.

    Back to my original question, Did they even read the report". I should have asked, CAN they even read the report!! Funny, I used to believe Penn State alumni were really intelligent people.
  2. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    My bro works as a associate professor at Penn since two years ago. Maybe he should have stayed in Virginia. :lol:
  3. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here's my problem with the whole thing...

    Set aside the name "Penn State" for a moment.

    The people they are punishing had, by and large, nothing to do with the sad occurrences there. As far as I know, everyone involved has been terminated, up to and including the President. These sanctions hurt players that had nothing to do with it, fans that didn't know about it, TV employees that knew nothing about it, and everyone at the university that knew nothing about it.

    This, in essence, is how I view the NCAA response:
    [​IMG]

    I mean, I know they had to do something, but if you look at it from an individual perspective, it feels like they're punishing the wrong people.
    basketbills and brofmfa like this.
  4. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Nice. I agree.
    But I thought Patero "was" innocent.
  5. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Paterno admitted himself that he should have done more.
  6. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Well, looking back, all he did was ride it out til his tenure there ended.
    I can't believe they thought they could sweep it under the rug. !!!
  7. max

    max All-Star

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    The supreme court recognizes corporations ( and Universities by extension ) as having the same rights as individuals in their ability to create and enforce contracts. So when something goes wrong they are also responsible to pay damages and such. When someone sues a corporation they sue that corporation and not the responsible employee. It does not matter who made the mistake since they were representing the corporation or university at the time.

    If Penn state feels unjust then they will have to be more carefull with who they hire in the futue.
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  8. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Exactly. The system creates accountability.
  9. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Ohio State is paying the same sort of price.... coach and players gone, they are out of the bowl race and league title this year. If you could only penalize those that were at fault can you imagine how bad the SEC schools would get (mind you there terrible now), just hope you don't get caught till after you have your title... no harm no foul.

    If one college in the future thinks my god, if we don't report this child abuse to the police now we could end up like PSU then there penalties were worth it to me.
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  10. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Fixed for you, assuming it's okay to look at a corporation as an individual rather than a collection of people.

    In addition, your original statement is wrong, by my thinking, because the "they" you mentioned refers to a group of people. In this case, the "they" you are referring to never hired someone in the first place, so they can't be "more" careful with who they hire in the future.

    It just feels... wrong. A corporation can't make decision. A corporation doesn't hire people. A corporation is just a name, a tribal designation that a group of people share that represents a common set of beliefs and goals; those beliefs and goals are fluid, however, and the corporation of one year is totally different from the corporation with that same name the next year.

    And the NCAA would be far more successful at preventing this type of thing if the people actually responsible (President, AD, coaches, etc.) were the ones being punished. Right now, I would guess that most coaches just assume that if they get caught being underhanded they'll get fired, but if they don't be underhanded they're not going to win and they'll get fired anyway, so might as well win, get fired, and get another job somewhere else. Vacating Penn State's (and Paterno's wins) was a decent (if entirely symbolic) punishment and a good start. I would have also banned every coach and administrator in that system from ever participating in the NCAA again, fined Penn State (the money was made off of Paterno's actions, after all), and let the courts decide the rest. Losing scholarships and banning the school (which, as a collection of individuals, is totally different now) only hurts the people that are currently there and had nothing to do with it.

    Actually, the NCAA could do one better - they could institute the punishments it did as long as anyone that was on the board at the time is still on the board. That way Penn State actually has a way of moving on and keeping the wrong people from being punished.
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    Let me ask you this. Suppose you were visting Penn State and a large object fell off the building destroying your car and everything in it. Who would you ask to pay for the damages? The maintenance person who's fault it was or Penn State itsself?
  12. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    Dang........I just changed my signature 2 days ago.............:)
  13. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    The President is in charge of making sure that the maintenance department is properly hiring, staffing, and overseeing the maintenance crew. If this happened, as long as the President and everyone from then on down was fired over it, I'd simply make my insurance claim and move on happily.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    What if you were in the car and were crippled for life? Who owes those rape victims? The University is responsible for the actions of its employees. At least ever since 1819 when the Supreme court ruled on it.
  15. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The prosecution rests.
  16. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    There are two really big issues here that you're combining into one, so I'll take them separately.

    1) You're talking about respondeat superior, and there's nothing from the Supreme Court from 1819 on the issue; it's a longstanding legal precedent - originating in 1700's England and brought over to the U.S. in common law - whose nuances have been refined over the years. The key issue here is one of the "scope of employment" - in other words, was the employee acting under reasonably expected job duties?
    In your example, there's a reasonable expectation that the maintenance staff is charged with keeping the statue from falling on your car, as keeping the building from disrepair is pretty much the definition of the maintenance staff's responsibility. Failure to do so is the fault of the employee acting within their job responsibilities. In order to claim that Penn State was responsible for the actions of the involved parties, however, you'd have to show that these actions occurred because the employer implied or stated - or the employee reasonably inferred - that an action was expected of them as an employee based on their job description, and this is a much tougher argument to make.

    Now, no lawyer in their right mind would try to argue that Sandusky could have reasonably expected that raping children was part of his responsibilities as a coach, so right from the get-go you can assume that Penn State is not responsible for the rapes themselves. Where Penn State might have problems, however, is in the actions of the individuals that covered it up, because that could be construed as acting in the "best interests" of the university. The thing is, it's been pointed out that Paterno fulfilled all of the minimum legal obligations of his post by reporting the rapes to the his superiors. Once Sandusky was let go, though, Paterno gave him keys for personal use of the facilities. Is allowing a child rapist to use his facilities a reasonably expected job responsibility? I would argue not, that it was clearly a personal decision and therefore outside of the scope of of his job responsibilities at Penn State. Given that Paterno - and not the university - was the one sanctioning Sandusky's continued abuse of children, Penn State can't be held responsible for any cover up that occurred, because the cover-up at that point becomes about Paterno's own personal reputation, not about job responsibility. So Penn State's only real potential liability is when Sandusky was coach, and only in the form of not taking care of the issue once it occurred, which they supposedly did by going to the police; this is going to be a very difficult fight for both sides here and is probably why they'll end up settling out of court, but there's no obvious liability for the employer, even though the public is heavily against them.

    2) My actual complaint isn't whether the actions were legal, or even involving the court system and therefore actually relevant to the Supreme Court. The judicial system in this country has the ability and responsibility to prosecute in the name of the people that were harmed. The government will likely punish Penn State and come down with a punishment related to the cover-up. The NCAA, however, is a different entity. Interestingly, the NCAA could theoretically be held liable if they didn't punish Penn State, because it could be construed as the employer (the NCAA) is allowing the employee (Penn State) to get away with criminal activity in the name of their job responsibility. So if the NCAA didn't act, you would be better off suing the NCAA than Penn State. The thing is, though, we're looking at an employer punishing an employee, and that's bound to the rules and agreements between them, and U.S. Law doesn't apply to employer-mandated consequences (as long as they're agreed upon and not illegal). That's why you heard the phrase "lack of institutional control," which is undoubtedly a term from the NCAA-university contracts that specify what schools can be punished for. And this is where my problem lies - not with whether they're allowed to do it (they clearly are), but whether they should. If the NCAA had any stones and wasn't just punishing to protect itself from civil liability, they would have set their guns on the individuals responsible and stated that they felt that these individuals were acting against the will of the NCAA and against the will of the school itself, and that both Penn State (in firing these people) and the NCAA (by overturning their results and records, bannings, fines, etc.) is punishing the individuals rather than the institution. I think the NCAA picked up the biggest sword it had and swung it in the widest path it could in order to appease everyone who's angry and just wants something to be done, and almost nobody involved with the acts and the cover-up were actually punished (other than Paterno, whose legacy was tarnished posthumously). I think that's wrong, and I don't see anything here that's come anywhere close to convincing me otherwise.
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Maybe I am not following it closely enough. Sandusky was caught in the Shower with a kid and was fired. Paterno notified Penn State and not the Police. Penn State did not notify the Police but did fire Sandusky but Sandusky is still allowed on Penn States campus and continues taking boys into the shower even though Penn State already knew what he was doing?

    I see where you are comming from but given the fact that rapes happened on Penn States campus from a formely fired emplyee who was suspected of it and still had a key has to count for something.

    as far as the NCAA - I would have shut it down. The whole program.
  18. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    I woulda liked a shut down of their football program.
    I believe the NCAA wanted a resolution quickly......so they came up with the drive-thru settlement.
    Still..........I'd give the NCAA an "A-" for their efforts.
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  19. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'd like to know how Freeh found 10 year old Emails that indicted/[indighted] Paterno etc. !

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