OK all wasn't Peachy Last year, Flip taking No Crap this year

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Saunders to be more demanding this season

    Tough approach takes center court - 09/29/06 - The Detroit News Online

    Interesting read.
  2. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,712
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Ft. Belvoir, Virginia
    So all wasn't so peachy last year after all.

    Imagine that, guys late for the bus/flights, airing dirty laundry in public. I am getting the feeling that Ben may have caused a semi-dysfunctional environment, complaining, unwlling to follow directions, causing disharmony........ERRGH, I said it, there is no doubt that I will get hammered on this forum for this one. Maybe it was time for Ben to move on, he became to familiar, maybe he developed that Godfather personality.

    The guys seems to be pumped, Flip is bringing out the smoking gun, The Pistons WILL play zone, case closed and not opened for discussion.

    We will not see a kindlier, gentler Flip this year.

    I am getting off the computer so I can put on my hard hat and body armor becuase the bullets, grenades and darts are getting ready to fly.

    Battle stations everyone.
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Merged our threads AG. We're sharing the same brain space this morning. :)
  4. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,283
    Likes Received:
    287
    We will see. Flip has never been much to crack down. Then again Dumars did not think his team needed it.

    I am trying to get ready for the next season. I do not want to spend it hating the coach and gritting my teeth during every game wishing Ben Wallace was still here.

    Darko, Ben, Larry, those guys are gone now. Time to get ready for 06/07
  5. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,302
    Likes Received:
    693
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    score one for the "ben was a malcontent" camp. I still don't think he was the liability that bball jay said he was but I do believe that the malcontent label is somewhat warranted. Esp. now.

    I believe in the leadership paradigm where its Joe and Flips responsibility to get the team on the same page. It looks like the attitude wasn't one of a championship team. Its no surprise they went down like an also-ran. THey came to the game unfocused. Management needed to address that. But thats only the ultimate responsibility. There's plenty of blame to go around as to why it went down like it did...and it appears like the players deserve plenty of it.

    This is the part of last season that stank...starters would suck or cop attitude and nothing. Same playing time. People keep saying the bench was thin. I don't know how much ben kept darko back or how much darko shot himself in the foot in practice but we had some nice talent there that went un-used.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    If one reads books about professional teams, particularly basketball teams, behind the curtains, there is frequently as much if not more personality conflict than with lesser squads.

    McCoskey is not reporting anything he did not know last season. This stuff is kept hush hush, which is ok as long as the issues are being dealt with internally. Apparently they weren't.

    I'm not putting this all on the guy who left. Sheed, Dice and Tay all took cheap shots at Flip during the playoffs. There were several games where CB looked like he woke up 15 minutes before tip off. Dice was never really able to get himself untracked and effective. Ben didn't do his part, for whatever reason, and perhaps his role as a "malcontent" is amplified because he was the leader, not Billups.

    Should be an entertaining year. I'd love to see zone that is effective more nights than not, a defense that shuts down passing lanes and triggers a lot of fast break offense.

    Expectations are lower. I think that is a GREAT thing! :D
  7. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Laurel, Maryland
    Interesting read indeed.

    My take is anything short of a Finals trip and Flip is done. Sounds to me like Joe D told Flip whatever you need to do, just get it done, THIS YEAR!

    I don`t buy that "with the way the game is called today you must play a zone crap" Give me a break. So are you telling me playing a zone on Lebron or Wade are going to get you some calls?

    It is very obvious that Flip can`t teach a hard-nosed defensive scheme, well ok, but there must be some assistants that can. None of the best defensive teams last year had a vaunted zone defense, but the Pistons will employ the league stopping zone in 06-07?

    The first month of the season ought to tell us where this team is headed for the season. If it is sliding downhill, Joe D must be as tough as Flip implies he will be, and it shouldn`t be up for discussion.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    That is curious Dlev because the Heat played a very strong man defense in the Finals to shut down the Mavs.

    The Spurs are always an elite defensive club and they also play man very aggressively.

    The "new NBA" is a lot like the Emperor's new clothes. No substance.
  9. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,962
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Can't think of many championship teams with the same cast of characters where keeping a team motivated and on the same page wasn't the biggest obstacle to repeating. Last I checked that was the responsibility of the coach. Michael Jordan once voiced his displeasure with the direction of Doug Collins. Did this make Jordan a malcontent or the voice of reason? The Pistons team is lead by multiple personalities with a common goal. Besides, didn't Chauncey claim to be the leader? Regardless, the coach is repsonsible for making sure everyone is on the same page. Flip couldn't do it. Very ironic that this is the first time we are seeing Ben in the light of a player that causes lockerroom problems. Maybe because he wasn't the cause. Chaos is easily created by lack of structure and respect. My thought is that Flip was borrowing his from the last regime, and by the end of the season the players functioned like a team with no direction or voice of reason. Initial reports of the Pistons praised us on our unified worked effort and proffesionalism. This existed pre-Flip. I submit to you that Ben was that voice of reason on the court through his gameplay (at least prior to last year), but the coach(Carlise/Brown) was the voice of reason off the court. Now we are without both. Heaven help us.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    The Bad Boys had a lot of personality issues, locker room fights, guys would actually start throwing punches in practice.

    Daddy Rich was a master at keeping personalities balanced. Many would say this is Phil Jackson's greatest strength as a coach.

    X's and O's are important, but not the be all, end all.
  11. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,962
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    BTW, the idea that these guys can coach themselves was the stupidest train of thought to enter the Pistons organization in quite sometime. Not only was it arrogant, but unrealistic. More than anything this was the catlyst for our chain of bad decisions.
  12. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,595
    Likes Received:
    276
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    I'll join you in that battle army girl. I definitely agree (and have thought all along) that it was time for Ben to move on. Thank you for your contributions in the past. Enjoy your time with the Bulls.


    I'm no Ben hater or Darko lover. But I'll take it one step further. I think Ben Wallace was also PART of the reason Darko wasn't given a full opportunity to succee with the Pistons. It's all based on my personal feelings and I have no hard facts to substantiate this, none whatsoever, so it's just my opinion, but I think Ben resented Darko. Did NOT FEAR him, but dd't like some young punk coming in and threatening to take a position Ben worked hard to earn. I remember Sheed and Billups saying "Darko was no punk". Did Ben ever say anything to promote Darko? "He pushes me in practice", "he has potential"...anything? I'mnot aware of it if he did.

    Darko may or may not make it. Whatever happens will be his own doing. I still believe he needs to grow up quite a bit. But I also believe Ben Wallace did not want him to succeed with the Pistons. Ben leaving the Pistons showed where his priorities were. Himself first. That's ok. I don't take issue with that. But it also makes me believe he became a distraction and anything Flip did that didn't help promote Ben's game, Ben became petulant.

    Flip. I'm no Flip fan after the playoffs. Cardboard cutout.

    There. I think I've done my job in ticking everyone off.

    Damn the torpedoes! I'm ready for the incoming scuds. I'll sit back and enjoy the fireworks!! Have a field day. :gun1::messer::graduate::makmiday::swords::mmph::angrysoapbox::6shoot::ban::popcorn::whistle::argue::rant::skull::rant2:
  13. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Ummm...Ben Wallace hated Carlisle and if you remember LB had that disrupting issue of looking for his next job while his current team was in the Conference Finals? He was also the master of criticizing players in the media. Voice of reason? Give me a break.

    Like the article said Flip had to walk a thin line last year. Flip gave the team some freedom because they had been to the Finals two years in a row, and some of the players took advantage of that. The players lost their edge, they got cocky. Flip isn't going to take any BULL this year. Hopefully, Sheed will recieve some discipline. He is going to have to average close to a double-double, get to the FT line a lot more, and stay in the paint if the Pistons have a chance without Ben.
  14. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,249
    Likes Received:
    374
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    We are screwed. I hate this guy more and more each passing day.

    ...a guarantee of more zone and an insistence on getting away from actual successful defensive principles....sweet:yukpuke:
  15. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,249
    Likes Received:
    374
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Ok, now not only was Ben a "malcontent" he made the entire team malcontents? Are you kidding me? This is getting just plain silly. The guy had one major (albeit public) dispute with the coach (who's gameplan failed) and now this guy is being treated like he's JR Rider. Classic.

    :bs:
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,249
    Likes Received:
    374
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Maybe not, but they are the final step. You can have the most talented team in the league (see old Blazer teams), but if you have lackluster X's and O's....you ain't winnin the gold.
  17. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,302
    Likes Received:
    693
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Riley called his players out in the media. Not saying it was the only reason...but something worked for him. His team responded. Our team never did.

    Whatever the system, the main thing is that it is done well. Flip failed to do that. The players failed to do that. I can't say that the zone WON'T work but crappy lacksidasical play sucks if its man or zone.

    I think there were more issues than that one public fiasco but I don't believe that Ben caused a wholotta dissention in the ranks...I think everyone saw it for himself and acted accordingly.

    When you have very highly motivated people they cut you less slack...you cannot work at their level and expect them to be satisfied...you have to exceed their level.
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,962
    Likes Received:
    34
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    I never got the impression that Ben "hated" Carlisle. Isn't that kinda extreme? But even if he did, it seemed fairly obvious that Ben respected him. In my opinion, thats all that mattered. I think their solidarity as a team reflected that. They seem to do a good job of seperating their realationship with the coach with how the coach was perceived by upper level management. By midseason everyone appeared to be drinking the I love coach kool-aid. So, the impression you have of the relationship between Carlisle/Brown and the players is COMPLETELY different from what I remember. I think you might need to take that break, mister, cause you must be smokin' somethin'. lol. :)

    BTW, I agree with you that the players lost their edge, I just think that Flip contributed to that problem by his decision to let them basically police/coach themsleves. Bad move. The best class left unattended will most likely develop bad habits. Shame on Dumars too for not recognizing this. Still think he's the best GM in the league though, he has just reached a bad rough spot with a series of questionable decisions.

    That being said, was it time for Ben to leave? Well, if Joe is committed to Flip (which he apparently is) I think the answer is definitely yes.
  19. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Oberlin
    i'm not so convinced our defensive principles were an unqualified success last year, especially not against teams with good penetrating point guards or slashing wing men, especially not in the playoffs, especially not against Miami (except curiously, for those few periods when we played them zone).

    So, zone: i can think of lots of ways it will help -- if they commit to doing it right: good wingspan across the back line; should help also shore up our (esp. chauncey's) weaknesses defending against penetration from the perimeter; the NBA does not have that many good perimeter shooters. If they can learn to communicate effectively within the zone and -- and this is a big if -- find a man to block out and go to the boards as a team...well, i'm certainly willing to give it a shot.
  20. linwood

    linwood All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,281
    Likes Received:
    1,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Thanks for summing up my thoughts in a few short lines. Zone? ZONE? Oh, for crying out loud. :tsk: The only team the zone ever works against is the Pistons. :rolleyes:

Share This Page