New Orleans Hornets Jan. 17th, 7:30 PM

Discussion in 'January 2009' started by Dlev59, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ok, so AI is one of the greatest passing SGs in NBA history. Forget the All Star games, First Team NBA, Team USA. Got it.

    Only one problem. Stuckey is more of a shooter and less of a passer than AI. What qualifies him as a PG? Because someone said so?
    :whoo:
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    While not totally true, it is in most cases. For sure, Dyess and Sheed paired together helped lose this game as much as anything else. We pretty much were not playing D at all with those two paired together. Its not lack of effort, but simple lack of ability. Neither is a power forward.

    (There are some teams though that do play a slower front line where Sheed and Dyess could be effective. But, Sheed and Kwame is better in that case. Basically except for being a decent backup to Sheed, Dyess is worthless to this team. And no, I did not just say Dyess is worthless. Not by any stretch. A decent backup center is a great thing to have. Very valuable. But when you put him into a role he simply can't fill, he is worthless at that point.)
     
  3. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    WRONG. Curry put in Stuck along with Rip and AI because he feels like he needs his 5 most talented players to start in spite of the major matchup disadvantages.
     
  4. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Wrong on this too. Check the Nuggets stats of 07/08. There were only 2 other guards on that team that were good enough to get consistant playing time. JR Smith and Carter. Carter is a PG and cannot play any other position so of course AI played the 2 when he was in the game. Not because he was incapable of playing the point, but because Carter could not play the SG position.

    NUGGETS: 2007-08 Nuggets Regular Statistics
     
  5. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    And Chauncey is not a typical PG either, so who cares if he fits the ideal PG definition? He can play that position and basketball period.
     
  6. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Are you kidding? It was b/c we were struggling like hell with AI at PG. AI even said himself that the offense runs smoother with Stuckey at PG, and so did Curry. And AI went on to later say that he wasn't brought here to play PG and he's better at SG and DET must have known what they were doing with setting up Stuckey to take over.
    Who cares if CB is a typical PG. He can play PG. Just like Tony Parker is not a typical PG, but he can run an offense.

    I watch the Nuggets. I go to their boards. I read the articles. About a roughly 15 games into the season Anthony Carter was put into the line-up to play PG so AI could go to SG where he was more effective. Before that there was another guard starting at SG and it wasn't J.R Smith or Anthony Carter.
     
  7. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I'm going to pretend that you're joking right now. If you think AI is PG then you can think that.

    What does Stuckey have to do with AI? And why are you coming at me with this ? I'm the one who said that Stuckey wasn't ready before and after we traded CB. I also said that i don't think he knows how or is ready to run a team, and that his strength was his ability to get to the basket not his passing. Arguing for the sake of argument is stupid.
     
  8. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    AI is a better SG, but he can play the PG position effectively. Okay the trade has not come out as expected, but get over it. AI is still one of the top guards in the NBA and is still better than Chauncey. And I am sure 90-95% of people would agree with me if I secluded your confused opinion.

    Now is he a better fit than Chauncey? Thats a different discussion. For the first 35 games since the trade it does not look like it, but last time I checked the season is 82+ games long.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yeah, me and the Team USA selection committee. A bunch of morons.
     
  10. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Lets get off Chauncey's jock for just a second please. You do realize we only played 2 or 3 games with him this season right? So far we have seen a lot of players making mistakes, but Coach Curry has looked stupid so far too. If we kept Chauncey who says things would of went amazing? Maybe we would face many of the struggles we are facing right now. You are only basing that judgment of the Pistons past success which is the wrong thing to do considering how much this team has aged.
     
  11. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    All I can say is that Ah-nold Canter guy really knows his stuff. After tonight's loss I shoved a frozen banana into some mango juice & rum and now I feel GREAT! :burp: GOOOO RED WINGS!!!
     
  12. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Hmm, so 45 and 46% is below par for a shooting guard?

    Career

    Kobe Bryant 45%
    Dwyane Wade 48%
    Gilbert Arenas 43%
    Vince Carter 45%
    Ray Allen 45%
    Richard Hamilton 45%
    LeBron James 47%
    Michael Redd 45%
    Wally Szczerbiak 49%
    Kevin Martin 46%

    Forgive the randomness of the list, I just wanted a varied sample. Up above, I have "elite scorers" and I "elite shooters," at least according to others.

    Below, I have some old retired guys.

    Nate Archibald 47%
    Rick Barry 45%
    Mark Aguirre 48%
    Michael Jordan 50%
    Reggie Miller 47%
    Mitch Richmond 46%
    Jerry West (The Logo) 47%
    Lenny Wilkens 43%
    Oscar Robertson 49%
    Isaiah Thomas 45%


    Where do the people on the two lists fall under your assessment of elite scorer and a high volume scorer? How many people on that list didn't/don't have the offense centered around them? Which ones didn't/don't take the majority of the shots on their team?

    You see, Allen's two years in Denver seems to put him smack dab in the middle if not rather close to many people on the two lists.

    His two seasons in Denver, he had the opportunity to play alongside another high level player in Carmelo. In Philly, not so much. Even still, his career FG% is 43%.

    Would you care to guess how much higher it would be if his layups weren't layups that sometimes roll off the rim, but dunks like Kobe, Dwyane, LeBron or Michael's? Would you care to guess how much lower any of the guys on that list would be if they were six inches shorter or didn't play with Shaq or Scottie or Rik Smits or Joe Dumars or Jason Kidd or Gary Payton?

    Allen's shooting and shooting % has always been underrated and even if it weren't, it's not why Detroit is having problems right now.
     
  13. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    If he can play the PG effectively than why is he continually replaced at the position on every team he goes to ? Get over it? What does that even have to do with anything. I got into a conversation about CB that was STARTED by someone else.

    You said that Stuck wasn't replaced in the line-up b/c we struggled with AI at PG. You were wrong. You said that AI only played the 2 in DEN b/c AC was a 1 and that the only two guards worth playing on their team. Again you were wrong. Another guard not named Smith or Carter played the 2 with AI for the beginning of the season.

    Are we back to to giving it time. What game will determine if he's a better fit? # 82? And why are we even talking about who's a better fit ? The discussion is about AI's ability to play PG and a poster pointed out that he/she doesn't feel that AI is free enough and compared it to him not having free reign like a PG.

    Maybe instead of me getting off CB's jock as you say, you should think before you post.
     
  14. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    You do that. Make sure they bring the bronze medal. And film from the Puerto Rico game.
     
  15. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Coaching loss. And I doubt the coach even understands what he did wrong in the game. Time for a new coach.

    While not totally true that Dyess should never play a whole quarter, it is in most cases. For sure, Dyess and Sheed paired together helped lose this game as much as anything else. We pretty much were not playing D at all with those two paired together. Its not lack of effort, but simple lack of ability. Neither is a power forward. Neither can cover the lane if someone with good mobility steps into it for an easy shot. A 12-1 run against us with these two paired in the 2nd stopped some good momentum we had going. And of course, very predictably, Curry went to this to end the game, and basically, we were not even playing defense at that time.

    (There are some teams though that do play a slower front line where Sheed and Dyess could be effective. But, Sheed and Kwame is better in that case. Basically except for being a decent backup to Sheed, Dyess is worthless to this team. And no, I did not just say Dyess is worthless. Not by any stretch. A decent backup center is a great thing to have. Very valuable. But when you put him into a role he simply can't fill, he is worthless at that point. Its the way Curry uses him that, during long stretches of this game, made him useless tonight. Great player to have on your team, lousy coach who does not know how to use his players.)

    The game of basketball is kind of like a chess match. You make your moves, the other coach counters. But hey, we went about 24 minutes of this game with no need at all for the other team to even run plays. We spent 24 minutes giving the other team mismatches to exploit, or a middle not covered so they just had to send anyone with quicks into the lane to score. Since they are not even running plays, you can't counter the plays. Your only choice is to play the right mix of players so that all easy avenues for them to score are blocked. Curry played half the game right, but for no actual reason, based on our roster, let the other team score easily the other half of the game. (Meanwhile, we are forced to run plays from the opening of the game. We run out of tricks before the game ends.)

    Curry did some things right. He let Maxiell play. Not enough of course, that would be way to much to expect from this rookie we have coaching our team, but he let him play. And despite Maxiell doing great, and despite us being on a 12-3 run, he removed Maxiell from the game and paired up Sheed and Dyess to give the game away. What a contrast. Dyess and JMAX, a center and a power forward, doing great. Then Curry goes to big and slow, regardless of what was happening right in front of him. If he had to return Sheed to the game, guess what, it is not a sacred duty to leave Dyess in the game. Yes, Dyess got his sacred minutes, and we of course lost. This is nothing to do with effort by the players, and everything to do with a clueless coach.

    Player by player briefly. Stuck and a decent game, nothing great. He made some outside shots, including a three, and finished some drives in. AI was not bad. They did abuse him just a bit with a taller player, but you ain't going to beat us going to Butler, taking the ball out of the hands of Paul and West.

    AI was taken out for defensive purposes at the end since N.O. went big at shooting guard. I don't know about that one. I think it was kind of neutral as to the outcome of the game. At that point, we were no longer covering our middle, so it did not matter who was guarding Posey. You can't keep any halfway decent player from scoring in your lane if you have no power forward in the game.

    Tay did so so. Apparently, he is still bothered by the groin. Seen limping for a while. Oh, and AI came crashing down right on his knee after getting blocked, and sat for a bit longer than usual in the 2nd half.

    Sheed is still 3 crazy. Why he had to enter the game at the end is a mystery. We were already doing great scoring wise, and defensively, before he came into the game. And then he just launced threes one after another.

    Dyess did great on the boards. He did great defensively, as a center, paired up with JMAX. But he was totally a fish out of water when called upon to be a power forward. Lots of effort, no ability whatsoever to play the position.

    JMAX was a wrecking crew in this one. I imagine that if had started this game say in place of one of our three guards, we would have slaughtered N.O. But hey, Curry seems to have other agendas vs. winning games. JMAX was all over the boards, and he bulled his way to the basket for several inside scores.

    Amir did fine. Just played the last 4 minutes of the first quarter, no fouls, in the first half. He played a bit more in the 2nd half, picked up a couple of fouls. His highlight was posting up, missing the shot but getting a tip-in to go from the miss. Of course, he rotated great.

    Rip was our leading scorer. Nothing wrong with his game. Heck, he even went inside for a score toward crunch time. I think he ended up with 21 points.

    Afflalo played in the first half. Not bad. Good D. He was left out of the 2nd half. And of course, we lost. He was not in to beging the 4th quarter, and N.O. went on a 7-0 run right there. That is Afflalo's time. Curry does not seem to able to learn. Not so far. I keep hoping though.

    2nd quarter. We were doing fine. Playing right sized. Sheed and AI were resting. A good coach would have left his two stars sit, knowing: 1)Rest is always good. Why put them in the game when not needed? 2)Why not reward the players producing? But Curry is far, far from a good coach. Instead, he sits JMAX and Afflalo, and brings Sheed and AI in. We go too big, lose all but one point of our lead. Not only did he refuse to leave well enough alone (twice in this game), he went to a unit that could not cover defensively around the basket. Just bad coaching. Between the end of the 2nd, and the end of the game, Curry coached as bad as you could. Of course, playing small ball is just barely any better.
     
  16. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    unfortunately, this actually speaks more for rip than anything else. i'll get into it on the podcast tomorrow where it will be easier to elaborate, but mainly...almost every team in the league runs pick-and-roll...whereas with rip you have to set a bunch of picks just to get him open for a jumpshot. similar reasoning is why the offense runs better with jmax or amir on the floor.
     
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Maybe Chauncey could watch the video. He couldn't even make the team. lol
     
  18. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Just wanted to step into the middle here. You are all wrong, anyone who thinks we either got better at point guard, or worse, from the trade. No matter how I study what is going on now vs. before, I keep coming with the same conclusion. The trade made no difference. For everything CB could do, AI can do something. Very different players. But both very good players. Our losses are continually from playing wrong sized front lines, both small ball and the whole fiasco with Kwame and Sheed paired together. (and tonight, the pairing of Dyess and Sheed totally killed us.)

    And just like last year, our only decent perimeter defender among our guards is Afflalo. Nothing changed. If Afflalo does not play, we lose. Just like tonight, when Curry chose to leave him out of the 2nd half. The whole AI vs. CB debate, just a lot of hot air on both sides.

    Ok, you can go back to your arguing now. Have fun.
     
  19. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Because Larry Brown said that he wasn't a PG and therefore every other sheep at the head coach position followed suit. All except Jim O'Brien and he made Allen the PG of his Sixers teams. Do you want to know what happened those two years? Allen went for 30.7 ppg and 7.9 apg during the first season and for 33 ppg and 7.4 apg the next season. If he could rebound at a higher clip, he could've actually tried to do a Big O.

    Do you honestly believe that Dwyane Wade is or ever was an effective PG? Because Pat Riley thought so. Do you really think Tony Parker does much of anything that Allen can't do? Do you really think that Larry Brown would give Chris Paul anything but a hard time? Those three players have the trust of their coaches to simply play the game the best way they know how.

    Do you really think that those three guys weren't heavily influenced by watching Allen Iverson while growing up?

    None of them would've survived under Larry Brown. Go back through Larry's career and see how he deals with players that would be good to great with or without him (Reggie, David Robinson, Jalen Rose, Danny Manning the pro, etc.) and then notice how he practically worships the Haywoode Workman and Eric Snows of the world. The latter are much closer to what he was as a professional player, the former are not.

    Heck, Larry had plenty of chances to coach Chauncey Billups prior to coming to Detroit and he never wanted him, because he wasn't a "real PG." You do realize that the only reason Larry could tolerate Chauncey is because Allen wore him down for seven years prior, right? Chauncey would've been on the first plane smoking if Larry had the power to do so.

    The days of "the real PG" are over. Allen Iverson killed him. The only "real PG" you'll see again, is the short guy that can't shoot for squat. Otherwise, you'll see a guy that is given the ball with the hopes that he'll occasionally pass it the other dudes on the floor.
     
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Star you're not a rental. It's nice to have another poster around here who understands a little bit of history, and has some perspective. Thank you.

    You'd think Chauncey Billups didn't flop in Denver, Toronto, Orlando, Boston and Minnesota before becoming a somebody (only when he met LB). That he sprang from the forehead of Zeus and entered the world as a minor god.
     

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