New look Pistons

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by 16 Mile, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Alas, of all the posts above, this is the one I identify with most. I think it's also key to part of the answer. Sure, Miami shot the ball well, closer to 51% I thought than 55% but still. To shoot well and still not score over 90 does mean a couple of things. Most I think that there were some guys on the Miami side who just played over their heads in terms of shooting the basketball - Mr Big Head and JWill being the most outstanding examples. They will never do it again, but they did it when it counted and scored a fair number of points on limited shots.

    I don't remember the games well enough to know how pivotal the fourth quarters were. I seem to recall the Pistons being down going into the fourth and scrambling to get back into it, but that could be wrong. I guess the point is, you ought to be able to win games pretty consistently holding Miami to less than 90 points. I'm not sure you can ask for much more. But if you can't score...
  2. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    There used to be a time when the Pistons preached that turnovers lead to easy high percentage transition scores. More than anything this seems to be getting loss in the equation. The Pistons were looking for their offensive sets to net more baskets than the oppostion rather than causing turnovers and coverting them to easy scores to reduce the deficit. The player who understood that most is wearing a Bulls uniform this year.

    Again, we've seemed to have lost our killa' instinct in the 4th quarter. Remember when we never loss a game in the 4th. The days of ironclad "D" and superior decision making by the coach are gone. The handle to that defensive switch has been damaged and the person used to flip that switch seems a tad bit unqualified.

    So, I guess we have to hope that the "Flip Switch" can accomplish the same goal.

    I still believe that our best chance at winning under Flip is if he builds a superior offensive machine and does what no other coach has done before that I can recall: win a championship playing uninspired defense with dominating offense. For those who think that the Pistons will be good defensively this year under Flip's guidance, I disagree. Playing zone is not conducive to playoff intensity basketball. Hell, I'd love to be proven wrong. I guess I'll believe it when I see it.
  3. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That is the thing I missed most about last year. Even if transition hoops only added four or five points a game in the playoffs it would likely have been a very different story.

    I didn't see the letdown in defense as well as you and others, but I sure missed guys running the ball up court and then going into the offense if nothing was available. What I saw was a lot of get a steal, then walk it up and set up a play.

    I think the defense still produced the turnovers...

    Sum of steals and blocks...
    03/04 - 15.0
    04/05 - 13.1
    05/06 - 13.1
    06 PO - 10.5

    So, a big drop from the championship year, but identical scores for Larry's last year and Flip's first for the regular season. A big drop in the playoffs, but a strong regular season. It's my story and I'm sticking to it - too many minutes for too few guys so that when the pressure got intense, the will went away - couldn't shoot, couldn't take the ball away.

    FYI - from regular season to PO, steals only dropped by a half a game, but blocks were down two. Don't know how much of that was Ben slacking off as some among us have said or whether at least twice a game fouls were called instead of blocks. I can't tell from the aggregate stats, but I might put some money on the latter.
  4. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    The only thing dumber than playing a zone, is trying to match up with the likes of Dwayne Wade and Lebron James man to man. I mean getting into foul trouble, sending the opponent to the free throw line a dozen times a game, and giving those guys numerous layups and open jumpshots sounds like a great plan to me. I mean at least we are playing aggressive D, right? So what if we lose?

    Zone may or may not be effective. If it's not we can always go back to the ineffective man to man.
  5. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I hear ya and respect ya DBA, but the too many minutes arguement is never going to fly with me. Especially since the slippage started in the Cleveland series.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We won a title 2 years ago playing Man to Man.

    I don't get how it can be deemed ineffective.

    When Hunter came in against LeBron in Games 6 and 7, he played phonebooth man to man and created havoc and mayhem.

    Playing zone against LBJ and Wade doesn't work because both of them can create off the dribble, and both are very good passers.

    In fact, zones are passive and can be picked apart. I'd rather rack up my fouls with aggressive gambling defense than a bend but don't break approach. But that's just me.
  7. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    You guys both make excellent points...
    Larry's squad in 03/04 was all about transition defense... he got away from that in 04... mainly because he didn't have the defensive personel to pull it off in the backcourt (Chauncey and Arroyo are not pitbulls).
    Flip has mentioned that he wants to implement more pressing this year... although Flip Jr. is not considered a very good man defender he is quick and can be useful in a trapping scheme.
    One thing Delfino is exceptional at is anticipating the passing lanes.
    Ben made the trap more effective because he could roam and cover two bigs in the front court... that will be a challange this year.
    Sheed had a significant drop off in his defensive mobility from his contract year.
    I wonder if a thinner Jmax can help put pressure on the ball (when he gets a chance)... take advantage of his quickness and long arms.
    Part of the fun of this preseason
    Good discussions.
  8. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Would you say that Dallas has some guys on their team that are pretty difficult to defend man to man? How did Miami neutralize them defensively? Everything that you are telling me is impossible, I saw Miami do in the playoffs. Sorry, I'm not buying into the hype when I saw a clear example of how defense can still be played effectively under the new rules. If the Pistons played defense the way they did in the 2005-2006 playoffs under the OLD rules they would have stunk up the place. The problem was NOT the rules it was the EFFORT. If a champion is crowned this year playing less than inspired defense I will be the first to admit the error in my ways.
  9. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Well, I do admit that when the fall came, it was a steep un. Those first two games against Cleveland (at least the first and first half of the second) were about all you could ask for. And then the wheels came off.

    Problem is that neither a too many minutes or a drop in defensive intensity solution fit the data very well. We're looking for univariate solutions in a multi-variate world - and since we don't have access to the locker room, we're doing it blindfolded.

    Not that such things should stop us...
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Well said. It was so much easier when we just smashed teams. lol.
  11. Prophecy Revealed

    Prophecy Revealed First Round Draft Pick

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    IMO it was not def. That stopped Dallas it was 97 free throw attempts by a one Dawayne Wade. Also I believe Miami played zone to stop Dirk.
  12. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    I don't really recall any great man-to-man defense played by Miami. There strategy vs. Detroit was simply to give the Pistons wide open jumpers knowing we would take them. Unfortunatley our shooting was cold a lot of the time and we had no way of getting high % shots- no guard penetration, Sheed avoiding the post like the plague, and Ben being Ben. The only guy creating havoc for miami was Zo. Otherwise we pretty much beat ourselves.

    I didn't really watch much of last years finals, I'll take your word for it that Miami played neutralizing D. However, when one player is taking 20+ free throws, getting half your team in foul trouble..well how can you play aggressive defense with 3 fouls? You ask the impossible.
  13. Maverick

    Maverick First Round Draft Pick

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    good point davia-g.. I just saw something that made me confused..


    the best way to beat a zone is ball movement, jump shots and dirk is considered one of the best shooters in the game so I dont think so.. good try tho

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  14. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    In the Miami series, not many of our shots went unchallenged. Yes, we did not make a lot of shots but that was because Miami disrupted our rhytmn. I saw players rotating quickly to defenders and getting all the loose balls by making the effort plays. Miami had an answer for us defensively, where we did not. As far as Detroit and fouls calls for Wade goes. Typically, you can expect alot of fouls when your defender routinely blows by you to get to the basket. Our perimeter defense sucked making it more difficult for our big men to handle their defensive assignments.

    On the Miami/Dallas series, in the 4 games that Miami won in a row, 2 pivotal games really stand out for me:
    • Game 3 - We saw Miami come back by eliminating an 11 point deficit deep in the 4th quarter. You need to get stops in order to make a comeback.
    • Game 4 - Miami held Dallas to just 7 points in the fourth quarter
    The interesting thing about that series was that Dallas was completely creaming Miami the first two games. Most forget that. Jason Terry was also getting alot of free throw attempts for the same reason Wade was. New rules, quickness, etc... Riley got the boys to turn it around defensively and as a result they looked great. Taking the point differential out of the equation as it doesn't always tell the complete story, Miami's rotations were crisp, the Mavs did not get alot of easy baskets and the Heat won most of the hustle plays. The team that showed the most effort won the series. Wade's drawing fouls helped Miami's cause, but none of that was responsible for getting stops against Dallas's high powered offense.
  15. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Just read a Flip quote about playing the bench, and as much as I want to be positive for this season, I think I'm going to cry.

    He blames the starters last year for refusing to come out last year as the reason they played too many minutes. Isn't he the coach?

    He also said he wants to play Flip and Dice as the main backups, 25 to 30 mpg, and Delf and Lindsey as specialists, 10 to 15 mpg.

    Crap, crap, crap. How does Murray get annointed as the main backup? Everyone keeps saying Darko never earned his PT, but from what I've been seeing, no one on this team has ever earned PT, it's penciled in before the season even starts. And this sounds a lot like the crap about giving Darko pt before last season.

    I have a feeling this is going to get ugly.
  16. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I feel just the opposite. Flip realized (perhaps with Joe D's help) that he made mistakes last year by not developing the bench. The focus this year from the get-go is to correct that mistake and find a deeper rotation. These bench minutes are not written in stone yet.
  17. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    just more evidence that earning minutes is a company line. people use it to say darko and fino didn't "earn" minutes that's why they didn't get any. but as soon as we bring in a vet they are penciled in for minutes that supposedly weren't there to give to our young guys.
  18. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I think they want Murray to backup PG & SG which would explain the minutes... if Delfino backs up Tay there's only 10 - 15 minutes available
    ... now what he does with those (given) minutes will dictate his future role...
    Maybe we should start hating on Murray early since he's in Delfino's way... never too early to start a hatefest.
  19. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Murray's a horrible player, so it won't be hard to come up with reasons to hate him. The next good season Murray has will be his first in the league. He's had handful of games where he's been impressive, but over the course of a season he's nothing more than a one dimensional, poor shooting, no defense playing chucker.
  20. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Won't it be great when we actually have something tangible to talk about? :)

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