NBA Opinion Pieces

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mikhail1973, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Yea. Kobe is Top 15 ALL TIME. He is the type of player teams tank for then gather guys to play with to get rings. IMHO, saying Derek Fisher is not good b/c of the rings doesn't help yuor argument. Now if you sid Big Shot Rob as an example I may agree. That said, I think a role player cannot be judged by rings (Horry vs. DFish vs. Heat Jesus Shuttlesworth) however, the alpha Dog, main guy, franchise player can - saying Kobe is >>>> Melo and only basing your argument on rings would be legitimate. Russel vs. Wilt. Not Mike Miller vs. Tayshaun
     
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  2. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    I agree that he is one of the best players ever. My point is that it is just as much the environment as it is him. The same goes for the whole rings thing as well. Players like Darko have championship rings for much the same reason that Kobe does. Single players can't win championships. The Lakers org has always created very strong teams around their superstars.

    The rings argument is sh*t no matter who you are talking about. Full stop. It isn't an argument. It's the kind of crap 5 year olds pull when they get a bigger scoop of ice cream and walk around grinning like they own the shop. They aren't always the reason they got the biggest scoop.
     
  3. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Fair enough. No reason to call me a 5 year old cry baby. I just think star players contribute more to Championships then a carefully constructed team does. The construction and pieces around the player is extremely important, but without the star it means nothing. Both are important, but the star is more so, IMHO.
     
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  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You know this sort of posting isn't acceptable here.
     
  5. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    Sorry sorry, that is not what I meant at all.

    I have talked about this at length in another post, but I will quickly rehash. I don't want people to think I am deliberately trying to put other members down.

    I think that for the most part, they are both equally important. A poorly constructed team with a superstar will rarely have success, as will a well constructed team with no stars. But you need more than just one star to really get to the top. I think this view is adequately supported by history.

    This is why I think the rings argument is so bad - for every great player that has multiple championships, there is an equally bad player who also has championships. Is Derek Fisher's accumulation of 5 rings an acceptable argument for him being on of the best of all time? A great player, sure, but king of the game? Surely not. Luke Walton. Adam Morrison. Darko Milicic. Are any of these players considered worthy of a ring? Do we think that the fact that those 3 have championship rings makes them worth of a conversation about how they are a better player than KD, Westbrook, Paul, Howard, whether as a role or focal player? Having a championship ring is just not a good measure of talent, or argument of greatness.

    Fair point.
     
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  6. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    I understand you Panda, I agree with you that talking about rings sometimes isn't a good back-up point for an argument... but your argument (If I'm not wrong) have a few holes.
    Following your logic then... It doesn't matter what a great player you are, you only get rings for the organization you're in and the players around you.

    Ask yourself this question: What other things Kobe Bryant needs to do, has to achieve, for you to consider him a top 15 Player of All-time??

    Ok, let's not talk about rings. What can we talk about? Stats? Milestones? Big games?
     
  7. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    That's not what I said. I said that a player is dependant on the players around him and the organisation to be successful. Why do you think MIA, SAS, LAL, BOS are always in the discussion when it comes to contenders? Because they have an awesome FO, which really knows what it is doing. They surround the team with talent and fill the roster spots with talent (more often than not). They are consistent in their approach.






    I am a pretty big Kobe hater, and I would consider him a top 5 sg on skill alone even if he had no rings. Exactly the same reason I consider LBJ to at least be in the GOAT discussion, even before he had won a championship. Championships are luck as well as skill. Injuries, bad bounces, whatever.
     
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    MJ picked Kobe over LBJ recently and used the rings argument. Only problem is that he was probably just doing it to boost himself (i.e. but I have 6!).
     
  9. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Let's not forget that Juwan Howard picked up two rings in the last two seasons for being the veteran cheerleader on the Heat bench. This past season he signed on at the end of the season to play 7 regular season games and then played a total 24 minutes in 9 playoff games to pick up another cheerleader ring.

    I only recall him getting off the bench once, so not sure how the stats state that he showed up in 9 post season games.

    During the NCAA championship game in Atlanta, he let the other Fab Fivers try the first ring and that is the closest any of them got to a championship after high school.
     
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  10. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    He also picked Kwame Brown over Rodney White.
     
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  11. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    I agree with every thing people are saying about the importance of the organization and how the team wins the championship. However, I can't just disregard a star player, their skills and intangibles as being a secondary reason for a championship. I also think LBJ is in the GOAT conversation even when in Cleveland. Those teams were awful and he still managed to get them to the Finals. I don't think Melo, Dirk, etc could have done that - and those guys recent struggles on equally poor teams showcases this. Now LBJ has 2 rings and probably will get more. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think he would have started to get them no matter where he was - Cleveland included. He contributes to a team just as much as a front office does. He cab make Mo Williams, Birdman, and Mike Miller All stars and cult heroes. Not Pat Riley. Riley has been with the Heat since 1995. Those were some dry years. Good teams, but no championships. Why is the Heat considered such a great front office? They got Wade. Then LBJ. Does Shaq, Ray, Battier, Birdman etc. go to the heat without Wade or LBJ? Is Birdman even a D-leaguer without playing with LBJ?

    At the end of the day I agree. A front office and the construction of team is paramount to success, but I truly believe a start player can transcend these teams from good to great. And this is why I don't mind using rings as part of the argument when comparing STAR players. Yes, Darko has a ring, but he didn't do anything to get it. Ben Wallace also has a ring, but this doesn't mean he can be in the conversation comparing the greats. Stats, the eye test, etc make the argument and rings are definitely a part of the argument as well. Barkley, never winning is a mitigating factor on his resume in comparison to Bill Russel, Duncan etc.
     
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  12. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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  13. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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