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NBA Finals: Lakers vs. Celtics

Discussion in '2008 Playoffs' started by Dumars4Ever, May 30, 2008.

  1. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    He's fired the coach. That's a risk in that it will affect the regular season. Flip was the winningest coach Percentage wise, of all time for the Pistons during the regular season. Money was being made in truckfulls with Flip as the coach. Joe did go out on a limb by switching the coach...
     
  2. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    The coach is almost always the easiest to fire in most sports. Easier to fire one person than re-tooling a roster. Joe has consistently avoided tweaking the starting five. They have been awful good for a long time but their motivation and overall effectiveness has been over estimated.
     
  3. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Yea...I hear ya. I was one of the few (or one) who wanted Flip to have a chance with a different roster.
     
  4. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Or worse, can you blame Joe for failing to take into account that Seattle might ship Allen for some picks? Without Allen KG never ends up in Boston and it's Pistons championship #4. LBJ wasn't going to beat them two years in a row.

    You can beat Dumars up for not making the coaching move last year when it was clear that the coaching relationship was dysfunctional. That's on him and the ownership. You can't blame him for Ainge getting lucky and swindling a team on the way out of town.
     
  5. max

    max All-Star

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    Maybe its me but I feel that we would have lost to just about anyone in the ECF. After game 4 the team just did not seem to have to will to play through fatigue and whatever else to get things done. A lot of that can be pinned on the coach.

    Bostons role players were a lot better than most thought. Someone always seemed to step up with a huge game then they needed it. The big 3 by themselfs was not enough. Guess Dumars tried to do what he could mid-season.
     
  6. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    I agree that the team would have lost to anybody in the ECF. I just feel that certain players decided that 10 playoff wins was enough and that they handed the series to Boston at the ten win mark. The wanted the coach fired first and foremost, at any cost.......
     
  7. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe can always be questioned for not being open to trading the starting five if a good trade or a potential swindle was on the horizon. He has been clearly opposed to messing with the starters until this season. IMO almost any player can be dealt, just depends on the deal and circumstances.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Plus the ECF has been the time where certain players decided that their defensive schemes were better than the coaches so maybe on some level they were trying to get the coach fired. You can't win under chaos.

    If you think about 04 as contrasted with the Celts. One thing both teams have in common is everyone being on the same page.
     
  9. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    You cant win under a flawed game plan the players don't believe in either. I don't think there were malicious intentions as much as frustration.
    ---------------

    It's the coaches job to make sure everybody's on the same. It's one of the things Joe cited when asked why Flip had to go.

    Personally, the only thing i blame Joe for is the hiring and subsequent very delayed firing of the coach. Regardless of Flip's whatever, he didn't have control over this team, and he didn't have it for a very long time if ever. If you knew this which is pretty obvious to fans,media, and obvious after all the stuff that's come out from players/papers, you have to do something whether it's coaching or trading players. To expect respect to just develop or the situation to magically resolve itself is stupid and unlikely. Was he constrained by money? I don't know. But in allowing this to continue we saw the same result over and over again with a team that i felt was good enough. It's hard to criticize Joe when i believed what he did. He is conservative, but not to the point where i feel like it's a major hindrance and in some instances might be a positive.

    I think now we're going to really see what he's made of as a GM. The next few years will say alot.
     
  10. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    I believe losing in game 6 was premeditated. Sheed just didn't seem right even before the game. I believe the plan was malicious by nature and was carried out. Being up by 10 points in the 4th quarter and then losing game six was painful to watch. Losing game 3 (after winning game 2 in Boston) the way we did told me volumes about the PLAYERS. Feeling that the players threw Flip under the bus and then parked it on him makes me want to see trades made.

    I think we already know Joe as a GM. He'll fulfill his obligations in the same way he did as a player. With class, but without rocking the boat.
     
  11. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    C'mon Nemo, do you HONESTLY think that the players pissed away a shot at a Ship (6 more wins) in a pre-meditated effort to get rid of their inadequate coach?

    This discussion probably should prolly be had in one of the Flip related threads but I had to respond.
     
  12. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That is what Joe thought and that is why he didn't want to tweak it. I specifically heard him on the radio sometime during the season that he was fielding the best team on paper on the floor and he didn't think he needed to do anything.

    Well in theory he may have had the best "team" of players, but their drive and hunger were missing (again) and we still needed some vet other than Dice who was hungry enough and good enough to put them over the top. That means that Hayes, Dixon, Fabio and Theo were not answers. Our youngsters may have had the hunger, but weren't given the chance to show their skills in the last playoff series...

    Of course Joe thought he had the right coach in place too, but if two of the vets partially ignored him, (CB and RW) then he was doomed no matter how good Joe thought the team was.

    Joe has to seek deals to assure that his team will get past the 3rd round & not wait for phone calls inquiring about who on his team is available. The Pistons were good enough to beat the Mavs, Spur and Lakers the past three finals but could not get past a team in their own conference....OK I will stop, we all know the rest of the story.......................
     
  13. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    I don't think the Pistons would have beaten the Spurs in last year's finals. Probably Spurs in 6. The other two years, I would have liked our chances against those opponents.

    You can tell the difference, in part, from what happened in the finals the last few years. The Heat and the Celtics both won it all, while the Cavs got blown off the court. The Pistons would surely have been more competitive against SA than Cleveland was, but the fact that they lost to that inferior an opponent says something about what their chances would have been in the finals.
     
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Its hard to argue against the impact Flips plan had during the regular season. Our point differential sky rocketted under Flip and the wins were a lot easier to get. Under LB in 04-05 we had a very thin margin for error. Only problem was when the chips were down the team did not stick with the plan. I suppose the inability to get your team to execute in the big games is just as much of a knock on coaching as any other aspect.


    Very true. We had a good plan in place and that plan was abondoned by Flip. Flip essentially gutted the bench during the playoffs. Even Maxiel was eventually benched.

    Its hard for me not to wonder the what-if's of if Flip would have stuck with the same team that got us there and continued using them all the way through the playoffs.
     
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    LB coached a playoff style game and forced the team to play it, even against inferior regular season opponents. This tactic didn't produce the blowout wins that Flip's regular season strategy did. However, when the playoffs rolled around, the team was disciplined and could just keep playing the same game. Flip's regular season plan was flawed in a playoff environment... and even so, he abandoned it anyway for an equally flawed playoff gameplan.

    Too much reliance on jump shooting and not enough emphasis on defense.

    All Doc Rivers talked about was defense and it worked.
     
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    I have never been a big fan of the playoff vs regular season rules, as if it were a completly seperate game.

    Not much changes in the post-season besides a loosing of the whistles and being able to react and adjust to what the other team is doing. I thought Flip did a pretty good job adjusting. Its just that certain players did not have the confidence in him to stick with the plan. And Flip himself lacked the confidence to stick with some of the players that got him there. No way he should have been radically changing the rotations like that in my opinion. All teams shorten the bench but not like that and not totally going away from some of your more succussfull role players.

    Oh well,what can we do about it now. Celts won and now Joe is going to have some tough decisions to make this summer. He already made one of them.
     
  17. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The Pistons were overconfident and took the cavs to lightly and by the time it was time to wake up, it was to late. I think the Cavs were spent and happy to be there and the Spurs just got lucky. The Suns probably could have beaten the Spurs if not for a Nash bloody nose and a couple suspensions..so

    so the IMO we could have taken them but alas there are a lot of ifs, so again I wont go there.:stirthepot:
     
  18. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    At least we're not Dallas fans.
     
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The biggest difference between regular season and playoff basketball is that in the playoffs, and especially the ECF, you are playing against really good defensive teams.

    All those plays that were golden against the Knicks and the Bucks suddenly don't work so well. You have to be prepared to grind it out if necessary. You have to force turnvovers and bad shots with your defense so that you can pick up some easy buckets once in a while. Otherwise, you will be frustrated and start blaming the refs.
     
  20. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Yes, I do...Just part of the "switch" mentality that has taken over the team.:stirthepot:
     

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