Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Sep 16, 2005.
Good rebuttal. Hmmmmm...I'm curious to know what the fourth quarter stat was though.
Why 4th quarter?
LB didn't help us with the REFS Here is where we disagree. Yes we did have problems with Refs during the year but it was in part because our COACH is known for having problems with referees. I distinctly remember LB coming out in the newspapers during the playoffs with a quote about how the Pistons have a 2-13 record (or close to that, I forget the exact record) when their games are officiated by "certain referees". He did not put the names out there but we all know that he doesn't get along with Bennett Salvatore (I actually have a VHS clip of a game where LB calls Salvatore a "drunk"). He I believe was also referring to Danny Crawford who is known for being on the other end of games where the Pistons end up on the short end of the stick. LB calling officials out in the press and causing problems with officials sure won't get his team "respect" in their eyes. The reasons the Pistons commit so few fouls during the season and playoffs is because they have a defense that is very quick and athletic and doesn't need to commit fouls to slow down or stop players. Their athleticism allows them to defend without fouls. LB calling out certain officials in the playoffs isn't exactly what I would call an "asset" to his coaching style. LB has made enemies in the officiating ranks throughout his tenure and I'm sure those predjudices don't just go away as he meanders from team to team.
My point was based on empirical data. The Spurs had 6 techs in 23 games (1:4). The Pistons had 20 techs in 25 games (4:5). For the Spurs, that's 1 tech every 84 fouls. For the Pistons, that's 1 tech for every 26.3 fouls. See the disparity? That's a composure problem, especially considering the Spurs got more foul calls per game than we did. CB and Sheed led the playoffs in technicals with 4 and 5 respectively. Knock off Sheed's 5 techs and we are at the same rate as the Heat who had 9 techs in 15 games. Under Larry we had a low foul count. It's just plain old fact. Maybe coincidence, maybe not. I don't have inside knowledge into the referees relation to Larry Brown, and I hazard a guess that no one else on this forum does either. Btw, his calling out the refs sure equalized the calls pretty fast, didn't it? ;) I will definitely revisit this topic after next year's playoffs to see if there is a difference in foul to tech ratio under a different coach. Disagree? I can live with that. It's just my opinion.
Micro I guess the way that I understood your initial argument was that: The Pistons got more respect (from officials) because of their coach. I definately diagree with that argument because at times I found LB to just as "childish" or argumentative in his actions towards the officials as Sheed or Ben or whoever. LB calling out officials in the paper and undermining them isn't a way to get your team the benefit of any calls. LB and his past history with officials, IMHO was more of a hinderance than an asset. I just had a problem with the idea that the Pistons would get more respect from the officials because LB was their coach. I just disagree. That's all.
micro. i don't think it was the amount of fouls we got called on us. i think it was the timing and the placement of the calls. because honestly we had some bogus calls going our way too. but usually those were given at the end of the game after the league had decided the outcome. we also only had 7 players playing so that low amount of fouls affected us more than other teams.
Well we know who to blame that on don't we?
I agree completely.
4th quarter inquiry Micro, this is the point I was trying to make with the 4th quarter inquiry. Seemed like the Pistons were fighting their opponent, the refs, and themselves in the 4th quarter during crunch time throughout the playoffs.
I think the Pistons made a lot of games harder on themselves by losing their composure. I don't think we got a lot of 4th quarter fouls. It was the first quarter fouls that killed us in the playoffs. At least that is my perception. I don't have period by period breakouts for playoff fouls. Someone could go through the play-by-plays and figure it out. Volunteers?
micro So if they dont make the finals that is underacheiving, and Flip needs to be fired. (a 1 shot deal huh) If they dont play with thier "trademark tenacity and defense" (as if that will happen with BEN keeping peoples heads in check) Flip gets the axe on that one as well. Thats all fine and good but by saying that you put EVERYTHING on Flip and nothing on the players. They have to be accountable as well. You simply cant say here is a free pass to play like crap and have no repercussions because we will just fire the coach. A player shows up to camp out of shape ehhh its the coaches fault. A player gets pissed about a call and gets thrown out of a game ehhhh the coaches fault yet again, he should have been up a refs butt complaining about the call before the player could.
I couldn't agree more, Tater, but as much as I dislike the pound, I must say that he was the force behind going after Sheed, Stackhouse withstanding. But he didn't have the power. Incidentally, I've been meaning to send kudos your way for your handle. At first I just thought "Darth Tater" was a simple, humorous spin on the Star Wars Villain, but then I saw that you're from Idaho, giving it greater resonance.
Abe, I'll try to make this short. I'm a huge advocate of player accountability and believe that only the simple minded can blame a team failure on an individual (like a coach). I never said to fire Flip, I was asking you a question. Because you've been defending Flip, offering theories and explanations for his lack of success, I thought it was reasonable that you think he is a good coach, and based upon your posts indicating he did not have "the team", now that he does have "the team", success should follow. If Detroit comes up short this year, where would you place the blame? Last year we came up short. Was it all the coach, or do you hold some players accountable? Which ones? Btw, It's pretty weak to compare Don Nelson or Jerry Sloan to Flip. No one to my knowledge has ever held the same job without a playoff series win as long as Flip. Jerry Sloan and Don Nelson are HOF candidates. Flip Saunders isn't even Doug Collins at this point.
Although I am sure you are dying for me to post it was all LB's fault I wont that would be to easy. I lay the blame on our bench - Mcdyess. LB only trusted him and Hunter to be effective off the bench so the other guys just didn’t get it done ( unless a 7 man rotation is acceptable in your opinion) Dupree nope Ham eh no Darko EC cant say that they did anything either Arroyo he might as well have still been in Utah. If such a great coach who knows how to get the best out of his players could not get them to perform it has to be their fault. Why else would he play 7 guys? They were not ready or not able to go out and play so I blame them. They did not grasp the offense or something or couldn’t play good enough D to get the job done. That is the only reasonable answer because the other ones well we won’t go into that. my point was if we lose even if its the conference finals you will want Flips head and those 2 HOF coaches could not win it all either and failed to do so several times having the same expectations by their owners and fans . And they kept their jobs. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the Twolves never really stood a chance. In the east big BIG BIG difference we beat the Raptors wow not a huge thing to hang your hat on. We had home court in that series right? How about minny??? No didn’t think so. Here is a???? for you put us in the west do we go to the finals back to back?? Do we even make the playoffs in 2001 2002? You can’t compare apples and oranges when you know it’s not the same thing.
Has Larry Brown Replaced Rodney White? It sure appears that he has as the most talked about ex-Piston. It will be interesting to see how many Knick threads appear on this forum during the year.
This coach is not going to screw us up. Look you know how we were always in foul trouble. Maybe that was because we had a 7 man rotation (someone already said that), and now that we have Flip we will use the bench=less fouls for starters=more agressive team=moree wins.
I think I will retract my statement. I believe you are correct. I think it was our first quarter fouls and Larry's 3 foul rule that caused us problems. That combined with the shortened rotation. No one is volunteering to go through the play-by-plays? I'm shocked.
Nope, I don't want Flips head. I thought we covered that already. If you go back and read my posts, I think we have a drop off in coaching talent. And if the prevailing opinion is that the former coach made the poor decisions to lose us a championship, then it would stand to reason that the new coach should either win, or be held accountable for poor decision making or lack of championship caliber work. Since you have made no small bones about blaming the former coach for coming up short, I wanted to know if you will hold the new coach as accountable. I already know where I stand. It's in the first paragraph of my 11:32 PM post yesterday to this thread.
Would someone shoot this thread and put it out of its misery? As if we could settle anything before friggin' training camp starts. Let's wait until the regular season to jump all over the coaches, like other knee-jerk fans do.
Your post should be moved to the Darko thread......all of them....
Separate names with a comma.