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Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Discussion in 'Pistons and Basketball Articles' started by dba, Jul 9, 2006.

  1. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I think they mean:
    o rebounding
    D rebounding
    points in the paint
    D rotation
    And in the ECFs, jump shooting.
     
  2. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Well rounded play by the starting 5 (as reflected in DBA's analysis) and an emphasis on defensive play that was their trademark the previous two seasons.
     
  3. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    ..and this too.

    Thanks for the assist TheeTFD.
     
  4. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I disagree. I think DBA's research without his opinions on how the data should be interpreted are just that...research. Personally, I agree with his assessment. The great thing about this article is that you can look at the figures he's come up with and make up your own opinions accordingly. I'm sure he would welcome your take on his numbers.

    What do you think the numbers show?
     
  5. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    On the one hand I regret that anything I write would make someone stop reading. Obviously that's not the way it should work. Good writing should make you want to continue. I would hope that readers would continue if for no other reason than to prove me wrong.

    On the other hand, any analysis is by definition editorializing. Even how data are presented is editorializing in that particular data are selected, other data omitted, particular formats used, others not, etc. Regardless, I certainly don't apologize for having a POV since that does seem the purpose of writing anything here. I try to justify any POV I put down and thought I had done so here.

    So, while I certainly respect your right to disagree, I don't think I'm too far out on a limb saying that if what was reported in the press all season as a change in how the Pistons play - from a defense first team to an offense first one - was actually true, then somehow they ought to have managed to put up a few more than two points a game. It's also kind of hard not to characterize this year's offense as one dependent on the three point shot as they made more than 50% more than last year.
     
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Offering a load of statistical data without some interpretation is pointless. Getting people to agree or disagree with the conclusions or opinions stimulates scrutiny. Needless to say, any conclusion will have it's critics.

    I'm not just saying this to say this. It's your best work yet dba, largely in part because you added some style and attitude to the stats. We're lucky to have you.
     
  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I love arguments that have some data to back them up. Of course you should summarize your findings and draw some conclusions. My point was simply that after reading the introductory paragraph, it's obvious their is some hatred of Flip Saunders. I don't think you need to start slamming the coach at that point. It turned me off. Just my opinion.
     
  8. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Frankly, I didn't start the article as LB vs. FS, just figured part way through that since that was the major change in the team, it might be a good way to spin the whole thing.

    Anyway, I certainly don't hate Flip. I really hope that the interview posted today is true - that he held back and wasn't himself last year in order to try and maintain the status quo. Without being in the locker room it's hard for any of us to know how he may or may not have been torpedoed by various players. Maybe that was the reason the team never got more than part way through the playbook. What I do see though is a team that started great guns and never managed to find new wrinkles when the rest of the league started to figure out how to defend their sets. Whether that was the fault of Flip, the players, or both is sure going to come out in another couple of months or so.
     
  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I read your article, DBA. Nice work. I appreciate all of the numbers.

    As much as I appreciate the work done for the '04 Championship, it's hard to look back fondly at LB after witnessing his antics over the past 2 years.

    The loss of Ben will certainly help the Pistons points in the paint numbers. First, it will put a more offensive player on the floor. Second, it will force teams to play 5-on-5 defensively and open things up for the entire team.
     
  10. Capn

    Capn First Round Draft Pick

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    Very nice article. I think it needs to be sent to Joe D, Coach Flip and company so they can see the difference between the coaching philosophies of a coach who won a championship and one trying to win one.
     
  11. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    I just reread this thread over a year later. IMO...not a whole lot has changed.

    dba...do you by chance have comparative numbers for this past season? Maybe they're in another thread that I missed? I'm just curious.
     
  12. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Probably. (As soon as I reread this and remember what's in it.)

    I'll look sometime this weekend.
     
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    Personally, I would rather have neither coach.

    04 was a great year but it was also one of the few years in LB's career that he kept himself under conrol for the most part. Only real incidents were the Okur never taking jump shots beyond 10' feud and his treatment of Darko.

    LB is a great stategist and probably the best man alive at making in-game adjustments. You also have to get to the big dance in order to have the chance to make those adjustments. His constant need for drama, favoritism of players, razor thin emotions, frequently threatening to quit can create a lot of undue stress and chemistry issues.

    If LB can not let his emotions run him then he is a great coach but he can only do that for just so long. If LB would have stayed he probably would have run this team into the ground like he did with the Sixers.

    FLip on the other hand has not been very impressive in anything really. If the Pistons are to succeed then Dumars is going to have to step in along with certain assistant coach/coaches and the team Captains.
     
  14. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    Then WHO should coach the team, Maxxy? (NO Popovich answer..too easy...has to be someone available or an assistant...hmm do I smell a thread starting?)
     
  15. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Bring in Laimbs!!!
    Or how about Pippen? At least he thinks he's ready.
     

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