Joe-D's Bad Resume

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Mar 23, 2014.

  1. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I will modify that a bit. We should have never drafted Knight. Stuckey was never the problem. Just someone that got blamed for our problems, when the real problem was guys like CV being on the roster, getting playing time despite playing zero defense.

    Stuckey should still be our starting point. It was not the best decision at the time, as Billups should have been kept, and Stuckey brought along slower, but once we gave away Billups in another of Dumars' myriad of cap moves going nowhere, we should have stuck with him.

    Bynum should not be on the team. Its a shooting guard we lack, because we gave away Afflalo. Afflalo should be our starting shooting guard right now.

    We lack a really good small forward to back up Smith. JJ is not bad, but we could use a guy with more speed. And gee, the perfect fit for the team, was given away in the Jennings trade. Middleton should be our small forward. For his defense, ball handling abilities, and knock down 3 point range.

    But we could still have picked Smith up, and young Middleton could be coming off the bench at both small forward and shooting guard. Even a bit of power forward depending on matchups. Or Smith could come off the bench.

    Backup point? Lowry was obtainable like forever. Too late now, as Toronto would laugh at most trade proposals we could offer. One of Lowry's main strengths is his defense, something a Piston organiazation should have noticed. Too bad they were set on the likes of Bynum, and throwing away a draft pick on Knight. (Yes, Knight could be a decent backup point since he plays D, but we would not have used that draft pick for a backup player. But maybe.)

    Go back a couple more years, before we gave Amir Johnson away, and heck, you start losing room for all the talent that could be on the team. So we will not go back quite so far.

    What we could be:

    Stuckey, Afflalo, Middleton, Monroe, Drummond. This assumes of course we would still have a poor record, which may or may not have happened depending on who the coach played as the rest of the roster. Starters will not do the whole trick. You got to have good backups.

    Possible bench: Middleton rests Afflalo early, bringing Smith in at small forward.

    After Smith comes in, our unit is Stuckey, Middleton, Smith, Monroe, Drummond.

    Smith and Mitchell are the guys who spell Monroe or Drummond when they sit, but one of Drummond or Monroe is always out there as the center.

    Afflalo comes back in after a 4 minute rest, giving us a unit of Lowry, Afflalo, Smith, Mitchell, and Monroe to open the 2nd quarter.

    Drummond comes back in for Monroe 4 minutes into the 2nd. Smith sits Mitchell and becomes the power forward, while Middleton comes back in. So thats Lowry, Afflalo, Middleton, Smith, Drummond.

    In total, the guys we play are just Stuckey, Lowry, Afflalo, Middleton, Smith, Monroe, Mitchell, and Drummond. An eight man rotation.

    Extended bench? Not JJ. We can find better players to fill in the rest of the roster. Of what is on our current roster, I'll pass. Got to get better reserves. And they are out there.
     
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  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Stuckey will NEVER be a point guard. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't have it in him. He is a scorer. He can put his head down and drive to the hoop. He cannot shoot. He is completely one-dimensional. His defense is bad. His attitude is like a roller coaster. It will be a good day for the Pistons (and hopefully Rodney too) when Stuckey moves on with a different team.
     
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Stuckey is up, for the season, at 25 PER vs. opponents 15 PER when he plays point for us. In contrast, Jennings is even at 15/15. I never said Stuckey was the ideal point guard. Just that he was not the problem. He was not, by any means, why we ever lost any games. Regardless of his flaws, even in individual games, at the end of the game he always matched PER's with the opposing point.

    And by the way, I watch every game Lowry plays, and I like him a lot as a point guard. I would still start Stuckey over him. Because its Stuckey who will bull his way, game after game, into winning the point guard matchups.
     
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Stuckey absolutely can't shoot long range shots. That is why its crazy to play him at anything other than point, where he is a threat always to drive in. And in case you missed it, Jennings is not such a steady outside shot either. And Jennings can not even finish right from the right, a truly large deficit for a point guard. He still plays, despite this glaring flaw. Stuckey can play, despite his flaws. And we would be a better team. Jennings, since he can not play D, should not have been brought to the D.
     
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  5. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I think this plan is good for a 32 win season.

    Sent from outerspace
     
  6. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree that Jennings may not be the answer at point guard either. When we ever get a nice roster of pieces that compliment each other, we will need a true, heady point guard to run the show if we hope to contend for a title again.
     
  7. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Was Billups a true point guard? Was Zeke even?
     
  8. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    [​IMG]
     
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  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yes. Yes.
     
  10. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    A couple things before my main argument.

    1) The only area where Burke is statistically significantly better than Jennings this season is in FT% (89% to 75.6%). Otherwise, their shooting percentages, A/TO ratio and rebounds are nearly identical. Jennings shoots and scores more (which may be in Burke's favor since they both do so rather inaccurately), gets more assists and gets fewer fouls. Jennings manages to have a better defensive rating, which is staggering to me given that Jennings is one of the worst defensive guards I've ever seen. However, per 82games.com, Jennings sees a +3.0 on/off court in team production, while Burke has a +4.0, suggesting that he's more valuable to his team. FWIW.

    2) Going back to blue's draft pick analysis, nearly every team missed those same picks. Tony Parker went 28th, passed by nearly everyone else. Monroe, even over Paul George, was still a better pick than Turner, Favors, Johnson, Cousins (arguably), or Udoh - the guys that went ahead of him. Afflalo was taken 27th, and is today one of the five best players out of that class - Gasol was 48th, which means he was passed on twice by nearly half the teams (Detroit included). Maxiell over Lee fits the same mold; the value:pick slot ratio was really high, even if it wasn't the best pick he could have made. Daye wasn't a great pick, but he was high upside (and I still think he hasn't gotten a fair shake in this league). Knight wasn't a great pick, but at the time a lot of prognosticators had him in the top 5. I still think it's way too early to judge Pope.
    All that said, when expected value is taken into consideration, Dumars has been an outstanding drafter. He has pulled Tayshaun Prince, Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Aron Afflalo, Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson, Chase Budinger (who he traded), Kyle Singler, and Kris Middleton, all later than the 20th pick. Even Stuckey, at the 15th slot, hasn't been a bad pick talent-wise, given his level of production. Dumars' problems have absolutely nothing to do with his ability to draft quality players, a myth that has been propogated by ignorant/idealistic fans for a long time.

    I think we can all agree that Dumars' ultimate failings have been two-fold. First off, his disastrous coaching carousel (which may or may not have been all his fault, depending which rumors you believe) has cost this team development. Yes, this is a players' league, but the coaches after Brown have, for whatever reason, been unable to take the talent he's given them and craft a team that was better than the sum of its parts. This, to me, is the biggest reason that the time has been mired in sub-mediocrity for over half a decade now.

    Secondly, he's valued flash over substance. It's true that you have to give something to get something, but the trades of Spellcheck for Iverson and Middleton for Jennings have shown a tendency to undervalue the type of glue guys and team chemistry that you need to make a team work. That he's hired coaches that didn't do a great job installing their systems and handling those prima-donna players is not unrelated, but his talent management has not been good. Then, when he's had cap space available, he's added the most expensive free agents rather than the ones that fit best. As an example this past year he probably could have had Calderon and Korver for the same price as Josh Smith, and that team would have been waaaay better than the one currently on the floor (Calderon > Jennings and SF Korver > SF Smith). To a few of us this was obvious, and now the team is paying the price for his starry eyes.

    In the end, I believe the whole reason for the dichotomy has to do with Hammond leaving. I firmly believe that they complemented each other really well - I remember reading Joe saying that he and Hammond worked well together, that each spent a lot of time shooting each others' bad ideas down. Joe is an excellent talent evaluator and as a former player has the pedigree that current players gravitate toward, while I think Hammond has a better grasp of things Joe doesn't get all that well; finding good coaches, fitting the talent together, working trades, etc. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Joe gets a call from the Bucks the day after he resigns or is fired or whatever, and as an assistant GM ends up helping Hammond build a championship caliber team in Milwaukee.
     
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  11. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    I wish I could like this twice. I was a lot younger when a lot of these things happened, so unfortunately my understanding was a lot more limited and a lot less stuck. But
    This has been the most clear failing to me of all. But it's not just about the flash of the players, but the flash of the systems. The league is constantly evolving - combo guards, sharp shooting big me, gravitation towards 3 point shots etc etc - and some of these moves just reek of trying to stay ahead of the curve, or to forge out a new one. Now, I don't necessarily have a problem with trying to keep up with the trends of the NBA or trying to stay ahead of them and create a unique identity, but what I do have a problem with is that the same mistakes keep getting made. Thankfully the last two CBA's have limited the length of contracts, else we have signed a bunch of 6 year contracts to guys who just didn't deserve it at all. Sure, we can all whinge about the AI style trades to put buts in seats, but is that really a bigger violation than trying to groom Rodney Stuckey as a starting point guard? Or moving Josh Smith to small forward? This 'positionless' NBA that we kept hearing about has never materialised, and likely never will. At what point is it appropriate to cut bait and move on?

    And the coaching hires are just horrible. Just the last two, Lawrence Frank and Maurice Cheeks are the two least imaginative and unique hires ever. Period. They are the white sliced loaf of the bread aisle. We have a difficult team to manage, which requires innovation and flexibility, both for ego's and talent, and we get Maurice Cheeks. The guy who doesn't think giving up corner 3's is a big problem and admits to not really understanding the stats. Where does the buck stop? Who could possibly be excited for this team when our marketing slogan for the last few years should be

    "The Three Losers: Lawrence, Lipstick and Loyer"
     
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Was Joe the one who babbled mindlessly about the positionless NBA or am I thinking of some other moron?
     
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  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Flip Saunders: lack of discipline. ignored defense.
    Michael Curry: terrible
    John Kuester: terrible and had no ability to manage the locker room.
    Lawrence Frank: Competent, but shot himself in the foot by benching Dre most of the year
    Mo Cheeks: Players' coach on the wrong team. Shot himself in the upper thigh by refusing to shake up the 3 big failure.
    John Loyer: Shirts seem like they don't fit him in the neck area. Hasn't done anything differently, except play JJ and Bynum more and Jorts less.
     
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  14. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Frank was probably right about benching Dre, sadly. Those second units with him and a bunch of shooters were better than anything the Pistons have put on the court this year.
     
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  15. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree. Plus, Drummond's conditioning was not good. He would get gassed after about 5 minutes of play.
     
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