It's time to **** or get off the pot

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Is it safe to say that almost everyone wants to see what Darko can do?
    The teething period should be over by now... it's time to eat some solid food (regular PT).

    I think it's the right time to trade Dice for a decent backup SF.
    Let DMC show us what he's capable of... within limits.
    With Jmax on board I feel comfortable that he could adequately fill the backup PF role if Darko doesn't succeed.

    Just give him the expectations... solid rebounding... improvement on offense (being careful to not create a selfish mindset).... give him a fair shot and keep the time limit internal.

    The results need to include winning enough games to maintain a high seed and his contributions s/b on the positive side or he risks losing his spot.

    This pace isn't working for his career or managements evaluation process.... it sure ain't helping his trade value.

    It's time Detroit...for Darko to Go to work
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    Teething period

    I would give it one more year. If Darko had played more the past 2 seasons but he hasn't. Darko is not ready yet. I know thats not what most want to hear.
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    And if Darko sucks, we blow our championship window?

    Sorry but JMax is probably not ready to be a 6th man, and there is absolutely no indication that Darko can score on players his size (ATL game last year he played against midgets).

    I don't see how the Darko experiment/development/whatever should override the opportunity the Pistons have to win a title now and possibly next year.

    He may end up great. He may not. Do we really want to kiss off a FA steal like Dice to find out? I SAY NO.

    Besides, JMax is not exactly a Dice-class rebounder either. Can you imagine Darko playing 20 minutes a night and finishing with 2 boards? I can. In fact, I will probably have nightmares about it tonight.

    One more thing. Before you make a suggestion like this, who is the player we are trading Dice for?

    Paul Pierce? Need more salary.
    Al Harrington? FA at the end of the year, needs a lot of shots to be productive.
    Desmond Mason? Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 18 feet out.

    Who? Who do we get for Dice as our fallback if Darko blows?
  4. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I would rather start the process a little sooner so we're not facing losing DMC at the end of next year.
    This isn't a desire to get rid of Dice... he's been a solid contributor (and he'll improve this year)... I really think that Jmax can do what Dice does and possibly better inside... so I guess what I'm saying is I'm willing to take the risk on young players at the backup PF position.... first Darko to see if he can step it up... if you can't keep up with backup PF's you may have some issues... if DMC isn't contributing by the playoffs then make the switch to D.D. or Jmax.

    I think there are players available (trade for Dice) that could really shore up our backup SF position...
    Battier (Memphis may want to clear some space in a couple years)
    Al Harrington (gonna lose him anyways... have to include a prospect like Delfino).
    Mo Pete (needs a change of scenery)
    Kenny Thomas (tough SF/PF with range)

    It's about developing the kids and making a weakness a strength (SF)
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I like Kenny Thomas but he is a 4 not a 3.

    Mo Pete plays hard but is a lousy defender and a streaky shooter. Trust me, he's on my fantasy team, I follow his every freaking movement.

    Memphis already has a PF. His name is Gasol. I don't think a team that shallow in depth will trade a starting 3 for a backup 4.

    Seriously Merc, none of those SFs are upgrades unless you could pry Battier. But Jerry West is not an idiot.
  6. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    So what's the plan... 10 MPG this year... 12 MPG next year ... say goodbye the following?

    I hear ya loud and clear about the risk involved in playing the kid more... but hey if we could land someone that can play SF/PF like Thomas or Harrington the risk is minimal.
  7. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Kenny Thomas profile
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Good Ideas

    But I would still give it more time. See what developes during the season.

    Seems too risky going with Darko and J-Max when we know we have Dyess. I am not sold on Maxiel all I have seen him do is hit a few shots during garbage time.

    If anything maybe Sheed can slide over the 3 sometimes to give Darko more time.

    With how questionable our bench has been Dyess has been the 1 reliable constant. Plus I love the chemistry he and Arroyo are starting to develope.
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yeah. Exactly. If JMax is what you and I think he is, we've got another 3 years before his deal comes up. He'll be an ideal replacement for Dice in 2 years.

    Look, I see your point about developing guys, but Darko has not shown he can be much more than a shotblocker (see your other post yesterday). He doesn't finish hard, he doesn't always play hard, while he loves his jumper, the rim definitely does not.

    And to boot, he really does rebound like Uncle Cliffy.

    If Darko was 50% of what he was advertised, I would consider it. He's not. He's maybe 20~30% of what was advertised and frankly, that's not good enough for primary big man backup on a championship contender.

    You don't blow up this core to get Darko PT. Not after Joe has held on so tight because he knows they were 12 minutes away from winning a title.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Dude, I'm telling you right now that Kenny Thomas cannot defend the perimeter against guys like RJ, Artest, Hill, etc. He's not quick enough, he's not nimble enough. He's an undersized 4. He backs up Reef and in Philly he backed up CWebb (and before him, DC).

    Kenny Thomas is a 3 like Ben Wallace is a 3. Just that Kenny Thomas is a poor man's Ben Wallace. Really poor.
  11. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Too risky

    I agree with Micro. Merc, we can't risk our window of opportunity expecting Darko and Maxiel to step in and perform at a championship level. It is too risky. Seems like there is a lot of trade talk on the boards for a team that is 10-2. And, we haven't seen enough yet, have we? I am very concerned about a backup for Tay too and also the back-up point position. Haven't given up on Evans nor on Arroyo but not convinced either. What about you guys? We have to limit Tays and Rips minutes. I am convinced now that they melted down last year. I would like to see Evans on the ball when Lindsay gets back as they can trap as a tandom. I like Evans hustle around the basket. But he seems small for small forward. Who will backup Tay on Artest?
  12. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    i think a reason for the anxiety of wanting to use darko is because he was a number 2 pick.

    if darko was drafted in the second round, this wouldn't be happening. I would not be prepared to lose dice to see if darko works. if darko becomes a bust, well s*** happens. he won't be the first, nor the last.

    piston fans have a lot of pride and people don't want our team to be remembered for repeating another 'bowie over jordan' move, but to be honest i don't care who laughs because we have been to the finals the past 2 seasons and have a great shot at being there again.

    theres no rush to make a decision on darko. our bigs still have at least 3 good years left, and he's learning from the best in the biz (ben/sheed/dice/DD/EC/LB). i'd like him to work out because 7ft studs are rare, but at the end of the day if we're winning championships, who can complain?
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That was supposed to be Delfino, but for whatever reason, he's not giving Flip a reason to play him.

    Everyone needs PT. Our starters win the games unless the bench can force turnovers. That has been the trend. Unless a guy can come off the bench and either shoot 50%+ or play tenacious "D", he's absolutely useless to us. Delfino fits this profile of all talent, little results.

    Stuff I read on various boards, "oh, Delfino is a slasher", "Delfino is a passer", "Delfino has a sweet shot when it falls".

    Where is it? Where is the legendary DMC ability to take guys off the dribble? Where is the mean streak (as an initiator)? 4 million year old Toni Kukoc was taking Darko to the hole and making him look silly. If you can't defend Toni freaking Kukoc, how the heck are you going to guard Antoine Walker or Tim Duncan? Dirk Nowitski or Amare Stoudemire? Heck, I'm pretty sure Darko couldn't guard Nenad Krstic for crissakes.
  14. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Explain the risk if you land another solid player that could fill in at PF if needed.

    K.T. is at least as good of a defender as Delfino and Evans at SF... and he can abuse SF's on offense.

    I promise you Harrington is far better defender at SF than anything this side of Tayshaun... and a beast in the post (more at SF)... certainly not a downgrade from Dice.... No tellin what Atlanta wants in return but their leverage shrinks each passing day.... We know he can play backup PF effectively.

    Hey you all know I ain't no Darko maniac... I want to find out if he's gonna work out or cut bait and get value while it's still possible.
  15. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Dyss and a small forward

    I think that the small forward position can be solved without trading Dice. He has started slow but was great last year in the playoffs and if we will need all our bigs for a long championship run. If Delfino doesn't pan out, then maybe Joe can swing some sort of trade later. I just wouldn't pit Darko and Dice. I think Darko can give us some decent minutes as a shot blocker (especially off the ball). Maybe later in the season, he might give us some good one on one play. But a championship run is usually built on solid/experienced role players.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I gotta jam but consider the following. Darko is to offense what Lindsey Hunter is to offense. In an ideal scenario, he can be effective.

    My pal bball jay will be by tomorrow to remind us all that Darko passes well and sets great screens. Well big deal. Laimbeer and Sheed set screens. And then they will roll to the basket or fade to the arc for a trey. And they will nail the shot. They'll rip the other team's heart out and throw it into the 3rd row.

    Does Darko have any indication he has this killer instinct? When Dice gets rolling with his J, he's like a freaking machine. Blam, blam, blam. 6 points. Timely blocks. Gambling for steals and jabbing guys in the ribs with his elbows defending the pick and roll. Dice will board like a mother. Can we replace this? Can we replace his locker room demeanor?

    Can DMC do any of this? Have you seen it? Heck no. Does that mean he can't do it? Well maybe he can. Maybe. If his hair is right, his nap was long enough and if the time he gets put into the game suits him.

    The two things that DMC lacks and every great baller has, is timing and aggression. He doesn't initiate and if you don't start something, you won't be finishing nothing. That's how the NBA works. Flip said it best. How you start is usually how you finish.

    I'm tired of seeing an ungainly and awkward kid like Bogut play with determination and hustle in the paint. I'm tired of watching Chris Bosh take over a game. And I'm really tired of Darko coming in to a game and everyone praying he can get a couple blocks so we don't have to endlessly analyze his 2 shots, one of which was blocked by the rim.

    I'm not a Darko hater. I'm a Darko non-believer. I haven't seen enough of anything to be convinced to the contrary. Heck, none of us have seen enough to say, "yeah we don't need Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh".

    We have players for every position BUT SF. We can get Harrington for Darko. Pick up the phone Joe. Make something happen. You're a bigger man if you admit drafting a kid you can't afford to develop is a tradeable asset.
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'm not sold on Kenny Thomas. I am sold on Al Harrington. I love his game. Harrington, Dice and Arroyo? SWEET JESUS.

    I know you aren't a Darko maniac. Which kinda confused me that you would think we should take another gamble to see if this kid pans out. You're a smart cat Merc. You see what I see. A whole lotta maybe, shoulda and someday. In other words, Atlanta Hawks material. Then again, my man Zaza Pachulia is kicking serious butt on the "Euro big man" front down in the ATL. 15 and 12 tonight I believe.
  18. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I'm right there witcha on Darko lack of... however that doesn't diminish the need to find out once and for all before it's too late.

    The problem I have with Al for Darko is the possibility of not re-signing Al...
    By doing a Dice & a lesser prospect for Al (instead of trading Darko) it buys DMC some more time to prove his worth and we can still use Dice/Al's salary for an MLE player next year if need be.

    Worse case is Harrington is our backup SF/PF going into the playoffs with money to spend next year.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    2006 FA Class

    Caron Butler
    Al Harrington
    Drew Gooden
    Matt Harpring
    KandiMan
    Nazr Mohammed
    Mike Dunleavy

    Likely Bonzi Wells (I don't think Sactown will pick up his option, btw he's leading the Kings in rebounding from the 2 spot).
  20. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    You guys are both wrong

    As usual. And both right. Flip can simply play Darko. No need to trade Dyess for that to happen. By cutting down Dyess a few more minutes, and each Wallace by 5 minutes, and adding to the 7 minutes a game Darko is already getting, thats 20 minutes a game.

    Yes, Darko needs to play more. He needs the experience. Dyess, Ben, and Sheed do not. Any minutes they play right now are just minutes logged on their bodies that will hurt them come playoffs.

    And if Darko can't handle the load come the playoffs, Dyess is still there. Indeed, we could use a true 4 man rotation at the big spots. No need for either or.

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