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Is Dumars losing the confidence of the fans?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Ozarkruffrider, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    It's people wanting to pay guys after they stop being cheap and have already topped out their value.

    David Lee on a late first round rookie deal (around $2 million or so in year 4) is a great deal. David Lee at $9 million as a free agent? Brain damage.

    Trevor Ariza pre-championship, reasonable value. Trevor Ariza without Kobe? Gimme a break.

    Vince Carter? T-Mac? Boozer? None of these guys are getting better, and they all want more money, or the same money for declining performance.

    Joe is buying guys when they are (relatively) cheap, taking them from direct competitors, and locking them up so that when they hit their prime, they are out-producing their deals.

    All Villanueva has to do is match last year's per minute production as a Pistons starter and he will already be exceeding his contract.
     
  2. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You're a good judge of value. I wonder why you've not been more successful in Fantasy?....
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I was good in the keeper league. I snafu'd the draft, because I had no strategy. But still, I overpaid for lebron, and from a year over year perspective, I own the best fantasy player. All of those guys you smartly grabbed when everyone else was tapped out, most of them will be available to be drafted. You couldn't keep them all.

    When it comes to evaluating players on performance, I am good. But to be honest, I play fantasy casually, and don't do any research about my opponents, or anything fancy. I just rank who is available against who I have, and turnover for the better players, week in and week out.
     
  4. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    lpgrl the problem with most of the players you mention is that they are finishing pieces you add when you're a team that is going for it THIS YEAR. i don't mind joe's moves because he locked up talented players with room to grow for reasonable contracts. they will be easy to move if necessary and they may blossom the way chauncey and the rest of our guys did when they got here.

    joe is back to collecting pieces and we could do far worse than gordon and cv.
     
  5. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I get that argument with Ariza, but i don't see it w/ Boozer,Chandler, etc.

    Odom IIRC was pretty good on the Clippers. How long has CV been in the league? I remember watching him in TOR then MIL. It's not exactly close to his first go around and he has gotten pretty sigificant minutes. I don't see him evolving into the type of player needed on a title team, but it's JMO and he is young.

    What i don't get is he isn't even what we need and people are so high on him. He's a mediocre rebounder and a jump shooting big. Everybody condemned Sheed for this and now we are OK with it b/c it comes in a younger package w/ half the talent?

    ----------

    Championship risks and CV should not be in the same sentence.
     
  6. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Half the talent? When is the last time Sheed put up 16 & 8 in a single season?
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You can't compare CV to Sheed on offense. CV took 3 times as many shots inside as Sheed did, as a percentage of total shots. CV took as many inside shots as Sheed and Dice combined (as a percentage of total shots) last season. Anyone who thinks CV is comparable to Sheed or Dice as a jumpshooter ....

    Like the criticisms of the coach as some "offensive coach", these criticisms of CV also seem to be unfounded.

    Odom was a career choker and loser until Kobe made him a winner. He never made the playoffs in LA, then Wade carried the Heat in 04 as a rookie. The less he scored with the Lakers, the closer they got to the title.

    Next year, the cap will be lower probably. We won't have cap space to do any meaningful shopping, because it will be eaten up by the cap falling. Joe is ahead of the curve, because unlike everyone who has been acquiring expiring contracts, he cleared the books a year early. This means he doesn't need to trade talent for Chandler or Boozer, to get an expiring. He has the cap room now.

    It's either luck or genius, but it is far from a failure. In fact, it makes the Billups trade for AI look brilliant.

    I don't know how many ways I can explain this, but most of the complaining and second guessing seems to be coming from the folks who don't understand what is going on with the CBA and the cap.

    Like earlier, someone suggested getting Boozer without giving up a key piece. Rip and Tay are key pieces presumably. CV and BG cannot be traded for months because they just signed. So if we traded the entire balance of the roster (not counting rookies) we could probably rent Boozer for a year, then receive less than half of his salary as cap room under deflation.

    So we should get Boozer if it only costs us 3 or 4 players including Stuckey, Maxiell, Kwame, then be lucky to re-sign a single Maxiell the next offseason.

    So when people criticize Joe's moves thus far, its somewhat ridiculous. We should get the coach tyrant who flamed out, instead of a veteran coach with pedigree and experience with Rip and Tay (NOTE THIS IS IMPORTANT, RELATIONSHIPS MATTER).

    And likewise, people bring up McGrady or Carter, both of which everyone knows are loser head cases, and again, renta-players who will leave us empty handed next offseason.

    C'mon... a 30+ year old Odom for the same price or more than a 24 year old Villanueva?
     
  8. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Are we really going to argue that CV is anwhere close to as talented as Sheed is/was ?

    It's easy to look at numbers and say well he put up so and so, etc, but the game isn't played on paper.

    There's a reason why Sheed is considered a franchise player level talent and Charlie Villanueva is well Charlie Villanueva.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sheed hasn't been considered a franchise player since 2002. That was 7 years ago.
     
  10. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    True. Sheed's mind hasn't been in the game for a while. Talent without effort is useless.
     
  11. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    His talent level can't be denied whether or not people think it translates.

    CV may have upside, but it ain't that high.
     
  12. max

    max All-Star

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    lpgrl - Where did this Odom thing come from anyway?

    Ros - I think people do realize that there is a cap and than CV will make 1/3 of what Bosh will get and what Amare and Boozer are making now. I read a lot of the CBA years ago. You have to almost be a lawyer to understand it. It was written by Lawyers.
     
  13. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Joe built a championship team from scratch. His 1st yr on the job he landed him a team that barely made the playoffs (just like this team), he failed to secure a franchise player in free -agancy (C.Webb, thank-God, he really dodged a bullet there), then he failed to KEEP a franchise player in Grant Hill, assembled a team of NOBODIES that won 50 games with a NOBODY coach (Cola), picked up a free-agent PG that never won squat - but looked to be coming into his own, got rid of our best player - and former MVP candidate/All-Star/Scoring Title Winner who was tough as nails, for a rail thin/no defense playing/Jordan cast off...WTF!!!! On top of all that, he drafted a too skinny player out of Kentucky that was obviously too skinny to play in the NBA.

    Joe is making damn near the exact same moves today that he did then, it worked then, there's no other reason to believe it won't work now. The formula is simple, Get really good players who are currently under the radar and hopefully they come into their own. I guarantee Joe's stock portfolio isn't filled with overvalued large caps, nope Joe's a mid-cap buyer.
     
  14. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Whether he does or he doesn't, who knows. What we do know is that he plays for OUR TEAM and we NEED it to be high, so until WE KNOW, I give the player on OUR TEAM, who's happy to be on OUR TEAM, the benefit of the doubt. Geez you sound like those folks who hate their President so much that they hope his public policy fails.......WTH???? If the policy fails WE ALL LOSE!!! (sorry for the Politics insert Roscoe) I'll be rooting for CV31, he seems like a good guy and good ball player that wants to (a)Get better so that he can (b)WIN!!!! And if he doesn't get ANY better, I'll still root for his success as long as he adorns a Piston's Uniform!!!!
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    What does that even mean? He's old, he's slow, he's soft on offense, and he's completely undisciplined.

    When he was 27, he was a god on the court. Now he's just another old big man, but he has range. He's Uncle Cliffy without the rebounding.

    Talent level? He's a smart player. He lost his hops several years ago, maybe when he showed up to defend the title, with a new contract, out of shape and overweight.

    For the love of Pete, he's not half the player KG is, and I can't stand KG.

    That's just bias talking, because Scott Skiles (no soft touch himself) seemed to think Charlie was becoming a more than adequate defender, and we already know he is a better scorer and rebounder than Sheed has been lately.
     
  16. NYPistonFan729

    NYPistonFan729 Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I think we should give CV a chance. He has a good offensive game, he is young will improve. I love his attitude already. Comparing him to sheed is not relevant. Sheed did his time in the D and now it is time to move on. On a side note, the entire team was not ready to play in 2005 until the playoffs rolled around.
     
  17. The Palace Artest

    The Palace Artest First Round Draft Pick

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    Rasheed lost his fire the minute he bought them championship belts. Before the title, Rasheed could have run for mayor of Detroit. He represented hard for the city, he embraced (and coined) the Wallace Bros. duo. And yes, he could still finish an alley-oop and look DAMN GOOD doing it. He went out of his way to embrace the city.

    All of that went to %%%% not so long after.

    LB leaving was just the icing on the cake. Screw Rasheed 05-09; since LB, he's been the antithesis of what I want as a key player of my favorite team. I'd rather we get Eddy Curry.

    (almost)

    EDIT: I agree NYP, we need to stop talking about him all together.
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    It's a bad analogy.

    The policy matters, not the man who is presenting it.

    It doesn't matter who the GM is, if he does what the Clippers GM does. If Joe Dumars acted like Elgin Baylor, he would get Elgin Baylor results, not Joe Dumars results.

    No man can make a bad policy work, and as Jordan/Zeke have proven, no former champion can make a bad franchise successful.
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'm not the one bringing him up. lpgrl did. Then she tried to make the case that the guy who is now a Celtic, is somehow better and always will be better than the guy who is a Piston.

    And on the Pistons forum, I felt obligated (mistakenly) to take up for the Piston. Because while I try to be a good host, I am just a man, and a flawed one at that. And I get tired of hosting people ragging on the Pistons and have been overcompensating.

    That said, it's one thing to have a critique. It's another thing for every single post to be a criticism, many times completely unfounded and disingenuous.

    But you had a point when you PM'd me. I should take the high road. And so I will.
     
  20. NYPistonFan729

    NYPistonFan729 Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Curry has an excellent low post game. The stuff off the court is really troublesome. I dont know about the money and cap space, but if he has lost weight and is looking good, it might be worth the gamble.
     

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