Is Detroit capable of developing it's own?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by 16 Mile, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Read this from a NYSun article linked in the Pistons article section:

    When Detroit began their run of Conference Finals appearances, they had two rookies, Prince and pivotman Mehmet Okur, making major contributions. Since then — and in basketball years, 2003 was a long time ago — the Pistons have failed to turn any of their young talent into productive NBA players.

    Most famously they failed to do anything with the no. 2 pick in that year's draft, Darko Milicic. He was little more than a human victory cigar for two and half seasons before getting traded to Orlando where he averaged 14.6 points, 7.8 boards, two assists, and four blocks per 40 minutes of action. If the Pistons had that kind of production coming off their bench, we might be talking about their prospects for a three-peat.


    This made me do a little research, and sure enough, only one Piston draftee who's averaged less than 10 mpg in their rookie season has ever played more than gt for Detroit, and that's the JYD.

    Tay averaged 10.3, but his only competition was Michael Curry. We gave zero chances to several players that managed to at least have or will have serviceable NBA careers: Michael Williams, Scot Pollard, Brian Cardinal, and DMC.

    Players like Allan Houston, Lindsey Hunter, Theo Ratliff, Mehmut Okur, Mateen Cleeves, and even Rodney White were given serious minutes to see if they could or could not play.

    Other teams, like the Lakers, Clips, and Spurs find minutes for their youth, and develop them. So is this part of Piston DNA, develop yourself, cause we're not going to? And what does this say about JMax and Amir? (Delfino gets a pass due to his unjury). Is Piston culture simply too impatient to let the young guys make mistakes and develop? And even worse, do we judge too quickly, so that even if they young guys start to develop, we've already given up on them or they've become so angry at their time in Detroit that they want out (Darko).

    IMO, our management is not player friendly and believes everyone is replaceable, which also explains Houston, Hill, and now Big Ben bolting.
     
  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You have a valid point about Pistons not always giving the youngsters a fair shake. That has absolutely nothing to do with Hill, Houston, and Wallace leaving Detroit, though. All three were treated extremely well by the Pistons organization. All three left because of greed.
     
  3. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I don't like the "develop yourself because we're not going to mentality", but I do like the "everyone is replaceable" one.

    The Pistons need to do a much better job in the youth department. That starts with finding the right players and doesn't stop until they retire. The Pistons' track record hasn't been all that hot lately. But, IMO, I don't think its any less par for the course than the rest of the league. Or is it? I guess that's debateable.

    But having guys that just aren't replaceable, putting all your eggs in one basket, would leave us resigning aging big men to 4 year $60 million contracts and would handcuff the organization for years to come.

    I like the fact that there's a limit. Not so in a place like NY.

    I don't have a problem with not resigning Ben as long as it was a move made in the best interest of the team. I would not be ok with it if it was a move made in the best interest of Mr. D's pocket.
     
  4. Superstarov

    Superstarov First Round Draft Pick

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    I think this is a reflection of the "Win Now" philosophy.

    Win as many games as you can.

    The starters are (were) proven, and could be counted on down the stretch. It was not in the gameplan to develop the youth, it was all about winning now.

    "Tay looks a little tired, but who are we gonna spell him with? Delfino? Evans?... Alright... but just at the end of the 1st and the end of the 3rd, then we're gonna ride the starters into the ground the rest of the time... They're proven players."

    This is a disturbing trend that needs to end before the Pistons alientate their 1st squad and their 2nd.
     
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The Spurs don't develop players. Ginobili came to the NBA as a European legend, and both he and Parker were allowed to adapt to the NBA game with the benefit of two HOF big men patrolling the paint (Robinson and Duncan).

    When you are at, or near the top, the only way you can develop youth is to draft an NBA ready impact player. A Dwyane Wade, or a Tim Duncan. A LeBron James or a Len Bias.

    If you want to draft the second coming of KG just barely turned 18, you're planning for the future, not for the now. The Pistons knew in 03/04 that Darko wouldn't be ready immediately, not in a way that could contribute to a title run, and that is why they traded for Sheed.

    Teams that "develop" players are typically lotto teams, or squads with a lot of depth. The Pistons haven't been described as either of those teams since the last half of 03/04, and then, they were busy chasing a ring.

    A lot of folks look at Delfino and see loads of upside. I can see some of it. But let's be objective and honest. He's not the second coming of Vince Carter. He's not Paul Pierce. We'll be lucky if he turns out to be Josh Howard. Lucky!

    If the Pistons can't re-sign Billups and shed another big salary/talent piece, we'll be middle of the pack again, and folks will be able to see all of their favorite young guys play. Until then, enjoy the D-League. It's purpose is to allow the baby Pistons to practice running, jumping and shooting without affecting the bottom line.
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    Or perhaps we have not had anyone decent or ready to play since Okur and Tay.

    Look how much Tay and Okur factored into the Pistons success? We would not have won in 04 or made the Finals in 05 ( Tay only ) without them. You get a huge, somewhat unexpected and very financially cost efficient player when a young guy contributes.
     
  7. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    yet Tayshaun couldn't even prove himself worthy of minutes in the mop-up role that he was given his rookie year, and that was behind Michael freaking Curry. It took Carlisle to throw him into the fire (playoffs) to see what he could do. That's something that none of the young players we have right now get the opportunity to do. Tayshaun filled our gapping hole at SF and Memo filled a bigman hole pre-Sheed. So they got to develop.

    IMO, that is the single biggest flaw of the non-superstar system. When you build around a superstar, it's easier to find minutes around them (as long as they don't play that position), because you aren't as dependant on every single player.
     
  8. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    You don' have to only develop stars, a team can work on just getting role players out of the draft. Look at Luke Walton, Phil Jackson went out of his way to find minutes during his rookie year, and that was on the team with Shaq and Kobe. The Spurs keep playing Beno Udrih, thouhgh he hasn't looked good, their trying to get him ready to be Tony's backup.

    Considering how well Delfino and Darko are playing now, in the Fiba prelim's, you have to wonder if they had pt earlier in the season, and had been allowed to make mistakes, if we might have lost a few more games, but had two good young guys coming off the bench to rest the starters during the playoffs.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That is based on the assumption that resting the starters would have helped us win the last two titles.

    In 2005, it was the refs (read between the lines on "home court")

    In 2006, it was tiredness from the PG. Delfino nor Darko are PGs.

    Playing 11 deep isn't a sure sign that a team will win. If it was, no one would be signing superstars. They would be spending money on depth, or accumulating enough draft picks to fill a bench with low priced talent.

    How many titles has LA won since they drafted Luke Walton? Is Luke coming around the key to their future? Once he comes around, it will all click and the Lakers win 5 more games a year or advance one round deeper into the playoffs?

    Beno Udrih's minutes were halved last year. The Spurs went out and signed Van Exel to backup Parker. They aren't trying to develop anyone.

    These teams all look for "players" and throw them into the pool to see who can swim. If you can't swim, they sign another player to compete for your job.

    FP22 has a really good point, but I still think that contenders, almost as a rule, play a short bench and favor veterans.

    I realize Delfino's playing well. Maybe his game is not suited to the NBA. Maybe his game is not suited to Flip's offense. Maybe, just maybe he's a very good international player, but only an average NBA one.

    Development isn't the cure-all.
     
  10. KP

    KP First Round Draft Pick

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    You don't get playing time in this league based on potential. You may get a big contract based on potential, but not playing time.

    In the NBA you've got to produce on the court. If you don't, then someone who does is going to get your minutes. Dosen't matter how much they're paid, how old they are, or how much up side they have.

    Most of the time, guys that are NBA players show it in their first or second year. If they don't, they become like Ronald Dupree - hoping for a job every year.
     
  11. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Champions with rookies playing a significant role is rare.... The Pistons haven't been in a position to draft a Magic Johnson type talent that was mature and skilled beyond their years.
    Once the Pistons own their own D-League team we can develop kids in our own system.... IMO the minor league system came three years too late and could have prepared Darko to contribute last year....
    Joe will be less gun shy drafting 19 year old prospects with a higher ceiling.
    We have to take each players situation individually....
    Memo was getting significant PT prior to Sheed's arrival... he was having difficulty staying out of foul trouble and playing help defense when he was benched for the playoffs.
    Tayshaun's rookie minutes would be on par with rookies drafted around #25....
    Delfino was receiving good PT prior to his injury... his performance last year is up for debate.

    If the kids are still not receiving PT in year three, we have to look at Joe's drafting and the player's abilities... unfortunately we can't see how well they're competing in practice (or their habits).
    Tayshaun should be considered a success story for our player development....
    Amir and Jmax still could be long term contributors... it's still too early to say their development has been stunted.

    It's not realistic to expect high pick rookies to jump in and grab primary backup roles.... they have significant info to proceess... consistency, strength and composure is typically lacking for these picks.
     
  12. vthomp

    vthomp First Round Draft Pick

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    I don't know how PHX has made the conversation of developing their own talent. This is a way overblown issue in forum talk. the NBA in general have problems developing players thats why they are on a mission with expanding the D-league.

    The Pistons scout talent all over whether they develope them or not is irrelevant. You have to put a winner on the floor bottom line I think Joe is better finding pieces in the free agent market than the draft because he sees guys that actually play in NBA games not College or overseas.

    Other teams may be better at whatever but finding piseces that fit and play well at a high level is not just fantasy.
     
  13. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Or as that stat sprocket guy's article points out...

    Not counting the Pistons, the teams with the most minutes from their top six won only 52% of games. Conversely, the five with least minutes from the top six only won 38%.

    Those in the middle include San Antonio, Dallas, and Miami. Balance, it's all about balance.
     
  14. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I like the idea of other teams making the sacrifice of developing talent and then trading for them right before they're ready to make a splash (Rip).

    It'd be interesting to see the % of draft picks that stayed with their teams beyond 4 years...10% ?
     
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    then why draft them

    if the pistons philosophy is only play the vets. why even draft a player just trade the picks. we could have got something good for the # 2 pick i'm sure. it's crazy the same people still drinking the win now kool aid. we aren't winning the ships and the players are looking tired and ineffective (ben) this is where having young talent comes in.

    playing your young players isn't always about the current year. just think if we gave darko 5 - 7 minutes last year we would maybe be nba champs and in great position to repeat with an emerging young center.

    delfino wants out and say what you want to about international ball he's doing well. even if he couldn't stop lebron or wade this year. that playing time he should have got could help us this year and he wouldn't be upset and wanting a trade.
     
  16. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: then why draft them

    This is just the same old broken record argument in the forum. I'm so sick of it.

    Jay: play the young guys:hand:

    Chorus: You need to remember we won 64 games last year with the "old" guys. :hand:

    Jay: But we fizzled in the playoffs:hand:

    Chorus The first game against Miami killed us:hand:

    Jay: If the young guys played it would have been different:hand:

    Chorus: They didn't earn their minutes:hand:

    Jay: They weren't given a chance...:hand:

    Chorus & Jay :

    :blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:
     
  17. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Re: then why draft them

    i agree that it's the same old argument. lol but i'm not tired of it. i will fight for the youth until it happens. somebody has to do it.
     
  18. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    LMAO

    I say our losses had less to do with the players on the bench and more to do with the coach on the bench.

    can that be part of the chorus, too?
     
  19. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Can I join in?
     
  20. hangtime

    hangtime First Round Draft Pick

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    I look at it this way. I find it hard to believe that no player drafted since Tay has been worthy of playing even 5 mins per game. That either says bad philosophy or bad drafting. Two years ago Joe's mantra was "win now and in the future". What happened to that? It seems that we should be getting some of these young guys on the floor rather than bringing in Ronald friggin Dupre. Also, on the point about winning teams bringing in vets, I agree, but look at the quality of vets brought in by SA (Finley, Van Exel) Miami (Walker, Payton,) versus what Joe throws against the wall at trade deadine time, and is lauded as making a shrewd move that no predicted. No one predicted it because, as it turns out, it usually is a waste.
     

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