Indiana Pacers Dec. 12th, 8:00 PM

Discussion in 'December 2008' started by Dlev59, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,284
    Likes Received:
    287
    Maybe we have to tone down our expectations a bit, stop using the 04 standard.
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    First, I read two boards before I post. One of the two (the older) I found filled with lots of great, and accurate, observations about the game. The other had some good stuff too. I really appreciate it. I love reading about the Pistons.

    Great to get a win. Yeah, we gave up way too many points. Small ball was a whole lot of that. One, they came inside on us over and over again, right out of the gate, scoring easy points right and left to stay with us. Two, the matchups were not good for us when we went small. Rip guarded Granger into a career best, what 42 points or so. Small ball ain't working at all on the defensive end. So far, our defensive average with this new starting unit is at about 110, crazily unacceptable.

    Now, Curry did go away from small ball, for the most part, for the 4th quarter, and for most of the 2nd quarter as well if I recall. Jason Maxiell played a lot in this one, and collected several offensive boards. Nice to see him make a couple of free throws too and can an outside shot. All very much needed tonight. All of his minutes were along side Dyess. This is important. Sheed did not play in the 2nd quarter. That is a great thing. Keeping his minutes down will be key to getting anywhere come playoff time.

    I see someone is calling it small ball when Stuckey plays small forward, which he did for a moment when we started the 4th quarter. But hey, we had JMAX and Dyess in the game, and Stuckey is actually no smaller than Afflalo, so well its maybe small ball, but not quite really. At least not near so bad as going with no power forward in the game.

    We scored a lot of points for sure. AI got the scoring going, getting 9 of our first 11 points. His highlight was a bucket made and the and one, followed by a steal and a layup when Indiana tried to inbound the ball. Well, that and his pair of continuation three point plays, taking a hit and still making his shots. AI scored just under 20, and had 12 assists. Pretty darn good game. Nope, it ain't his D that gave them all those points. He did fine guarding Ford, who is short as him.

    Continuing on with the excellent scoring from our guards. Rip gave up a ton of points. But that does not make him a poor defender. He is simply not a small forward. Not by any stretch really. Its been ugly these past two games watching him struggle with Butler with Washington and then tonight with Granger. He is overpowered something fierce. Now, Rip also scored well in both games, 28 tonight. Is he getting more points playing small forward? At small forward, he does have less ball handling chores to do. But hey, seems Rip scores plenty at shooting guard too. All those points he gives up is too much a price for maybe a point or two more he maybe is getting from playing small forward. It ain't working.

    Stuckey had 8 assists with about 20 points or so. The surprise? Four triples made on five tries. They were leaving him open, and he made them pay. Several nice drives in too. His defense was good enough. Nobody can complain about his production so far as a starter. PS, the Washington game was his first loss as a starter.

    And one more guard did a lot of scoring for us for the time he played. Bynum. He hit his outside shots, and got inside some. Pretty impressive and he plays solid D too.

    Tay got inside for a couple of scores, but he took and missed quite a few outside shots.

    Sheed hardly shot the ball at all for most of the game. He did miss a few before connecting on some cruch time hoops, including a triple. But hey, with our guards shooting so well, there are only so many shots to be taken.

    Herrmann only played a few minutes to end the 2nd quarter. Not enough to where the other team could focus on him, thankfully.

    Afflalo played quite a bit in the 1st half, did not score, but played solid D as usual. He only played a few minutes in the 2nd half, but was used as a defensive sub in the close finish. He iced the game finally with a pair of made free throws. (Which put us up 4 with .7 seconds to go.)

    Amir did not play.

    Let me see. Grading Curry. One, way too much small ball, using a starting unit that does not function on D. Very poor. Playing Stuckey, very good. Afflalo got enough time, so did JMAX. He left out Amir, so he only gets a B for developing our young players. And I think I am being generous as I believe Amir is going to be very much needed if we are going to win it all this year. Oh, and I made it a B instead of a C, because Bynum also got some good minutes.

    Overplaying players? AI played too much. Amir could have played some of his minutes, reduced our minutes with small ball that way.

    Dyess scored 12 points in his first 10 minutes. For sure, he gave us some bench scoring. I still remember though that a lot of people in the past have pointed out that JMAX and Dyess form our weakest defensive pair of bigs. But hey, compared to small ball, its great, like a breath of fresh air. After smelling rotten veggies for like two weeks. And at least we did not overplay Sheed. Not even close. Dyess so far has concentrated a lot on scoring inside, although he did can a few outside jumpers today as well. But remember, if he is fading away on his jumper, he can't help with the rebounding. More inside stuff please. Dyess is not what he was, but then again, the league is not using as much beef inside these days. Go to the basket more Dyess.

    We finished the game with AI, Rip, Tay, Dyess, and Sheed. As far as I am concerned, we can just go ahead and use that as our starting unit. No, its not near as good as starting Amir instead of Dyess, but small ball is utterly terrible. Maybe that is what Curry is trying to pull in the first place? Finding an excuse to start Dyess?

    Yes, Stuckey had a fine game, but someone, amongst our guards, had to sit. Don't say Tay could have sat either, as he was very much needed in the game to help guard Granger. So, we avoided small ball at the end of the game, and won it. Maybe Curry will get the hint that small ball does not work.

    The whole game featured us being ahead, by about 6 points or so, thru most of the game. In other words, every possesion was important. Good way to keep our players focused.

    Again, great to see a win. GO PISTONS!!!!!
  3. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,199
    Likes Received:
    189
    A win. A win. But we are not a Western style high flying offensive act. Our offensive firepower is quite good. The execution has smoothed out. But sooner or later we hit a snag (AI turnover or a bit too one on one). Meanwhile the opposing team is running practice drills on whoever is in the game. We lose 6-10 points at the bat of an eye. We have all seen that happen.

    Sorry, our players are not that bad defensively nor can I blame small ball alone. The coach has to be called out. The defensive scheme doesn't work. It needs to be changed so that this team can compete at its righful level.

    AI and Rip are doing just fine together. Hope those threes by Stuckey are real. If he can shoot then he will probably become a star.

    The Pistons can score. But not enough to be able to simply outscore teams. Bad execution doesn't explain that (defense). The intensity was there. The scheme is flawed and needs to be changed no matter who is on the court.
  4. Smoooth

    Smoooth First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto
    Our defence is still horrible, but I will take the W.
    Kudos to Rip and Stuck.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    16,997
    Likes Received:
    2,475
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Our guards scored 79 points in the game (WB/RS/RH/AI/AA). AA was fine, but the other 4 all had great games at the same time. And Stuckey's shooting display was exactly what he needed. PG's need to make the other team pay for guarding against the drive. He really needs to continue to establish that he can shoot this shot and get it on the scouting reports. Bynum also did more than his usual with several J's from decent range.

    AI had one of the better games since he's joined the team. The best part about his play was that he seemed to actively be looking for Rip and especially Dyess when he drew defenders. In the first dozen games or so, he seemed to only pass when he hit a dead end. Now, it looks like he is planning his passes out during the drives. I'm sure it has to do with learning how his teammates tend to react and where they float to.

    Dyess and Maxiell were both very solid offensively. If Curry would have pulled another benching of both Amir and Max, then we would have ended this game with only 2 offensive boards. But thankfully, MC did insert Maxiell and he got us some extra possessions.

    Tay and Sheed were lousy. Not literally lice infested, but pretty poor with <30% shooting and 2 fta's between them.

    Now to the negatives-
    Who is this team? Are we watching a Detroit team? WTH is the coach doing? We are a small team to start with. Sheed is a PF who is our starting center. So, in the ECF, is Tay really going to be guarding KG? We're going to have Rip on Pierce? Stucky on Allen? And AI on Rondo? It's so stupid, I can't even carry on typing...

    Is Sam Mitchell ready to get back into coaching?
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    Very good last paragraph. What won't fly in the playoffs should not be happening right now.
  7. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,309
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    I'm pretty sure Ben will start off on KG and then they'll come at him with Varejo. LeBron will take Pierce and they'll put West, Gibson and Williams on Rondo. The closest Tay and co will come to the ECF will be seats 1-5 row 2.

    Do the Pistons even have a defensive philosophy outside of man to man? Best I can tell it's man to man on an island. There's no other concept beyond don't get beat.
  8. raxrets

    raxrets Starter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,476
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    tartu
    why abandoning 04 standard was in case of Flip unforgivable but with MC tolerable?

    Besides, MC himself promised before season that he will bring intensity back

    My only hope is that in practices they now try to get offense going and after this they turn attention to D. Simply step by step.

    Both Cleveland and Boston play above 04 Pistons standard now.
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    16,997
    Likes Received:
    2,475
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    I was really expecting our defense to be our calling card this year. I was envisioning 10 point halftime Piston leads where Curry would spend the entire break screaming at our guys for giving up a layup.
  10. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    832
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    windsor
    LMAO!!!:stooges:
  11. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,904
    Likes Received:
    771
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    :thumb[1]:
  12. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Miramar, Fl
    That 04 team would have beaten both Bos and Cle in a 7 game series. I think you are really underestimating how great that team was. That team could consistently win on the road and we won the championship in less games overall against better competitiion. In that year we beat the defending ECF champs, the team with the best record, and Shaq/Kobe in their prime. I really think that team could have beaten some of the all-time great teams in a 7 game series. Just my opinion though.
  13. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Miramar, Fl

    I've been saying the whole time that dyess may need to start and I was laughed off the stage, lmao
  14. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,284
    Likes Received:
    287
    Thing is I want to see Stucky continue to start which begs the question of who would you bench? I am ok with this starting line for token purposes so everyone's ego can stay intact but you can substitute earlier.

    Yea the defense was not always there but it was in the 2nd half of the 4th Q which it the important thing. Team needs a lot of work so you can't expect everything at the same time.

    Stucky hitting those 3's is more important than how they played D for the 1st 3 quarters. You know how huge that was? If he keeps it up then he will be almost impossible to guard. Speaking of D - I think Stucky is already at least on par with CB. Also relating to chemistry issues after the trade is how Rip is back - had his best game of the year and was clutch in the 4th Q.

    What kept this game from going in the direction of the last 2 when Indy rallied was Maxiel and Dyess. Both had some huge plays in the 3rd and 4th Q which beat Indy back down from taking the lead and kept them in check while the Pistons O was able to pull away again.
  15. Nemo

    Nemo Hall of Fame Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    11,387
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lake Elmo

    I had this feeling also. Based on What Curry said, and the LOVE PF showed.
  16. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    Dyess should absolutely not start. However, compared with the small ball lineup we are using, it would be a lot better. Please note, Dyess played the whole 4th, with JMAX or Sheed along side him, and we gave up more points than in any of the first three quarters. Not good. Dyess has no lateral movement, and no way you start him along old man Sheed and make Sheed injure himself trying to cover the guy.

    Unfortunately, small ball is far worse. Here, we have Rip, Tay, and Sheed all ready to go on the IL for overdoing. That still does not make it right to start Dyess.

    At the start of the season, it was debated a lot about who should start amongst Kwame, Amir, and JMAX. A lot of people thought JMAX is the one who should be starting. I still say it should be Amir, but JMAX is my next choice.

    Edited to ask: who would you sit right now to put another big in the game? I'd choose Rip.
  17. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Miramar, Fl
    Well yeah Rip or AI. I believe one of them has to go to the bench, however it may destroy the team sadly.
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,889
    Likes Received:
    1,733
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    I'm seeing Tay needed on the bench.
  19. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Miramar, Fl
    I see where you are going, with our line-up currently constructed I dont know how tay is gonna fare against other 4s in the league. However, since the move he hasnt had to guard the other teams best player Carron Butler and Danny Granger. In the long run this may be the break that Tay needs to stay fresh in the playoffs.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,889
    Likes Received:
    1,733
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Rip is playing better at the 3 than Tay is at the 4. I might even argue that Rip is playing better than Tay at the 3.

    So the question is, if Stuckey is better at the one, and if AI is better at the two, and Rip is better at the three, then is Tay better on the bench next to Curry, with his seatbelt on?

Share This Page