I'm starting to miss R Cola *Rick Carlisle*

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by DaviaG-Rap, Feb 8, 2006.

  1. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Besides the fact that Carlisle started Michael Curry and sat Tay his entire rookie year, slowed the game down to a hault, was stubborn, and alienated his players... I'm starting to miss him.

    Flip and Larry are just so full of crap. Yeah Larry is a Hall of Famer and contributed to a championship, and Flip has helped us to our greatest regular season record ever, but I have trouble trusting either of them. LB was arrogant and a control freak, and could never decide what he wanted. Flip knows what he wants and what the team needs (a larger rotation), yet has been yellow about developing the bench. He has been saying since day 1 that he WILL run a 10 man rotation, develop the young players, and not overplay the starters, yet has done the exact opposite! We are more than halfway through the season and he keeps feeding us the same BS. It's not that hard to find minutes for these guys and still coach us to victory.

    At least Carlisle knows the value of a deep rotation. For all of his faults, he got the most out of his teams. I don't think Flip and LB are willing to do what it takes, even sacrificing a few meaningless regular season games- for the greater good. In my opinion riding the best starting five in basketball is just cowardly. Coaching is about making everyone on the team BETTER. We know what the starters are capable of, Flip's job is getting Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, Hunter, and Darko to play at their highest level.
  2. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Windsor, Ontario
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Dude, I agree with you 100%.

    But look on the bright side, atleast our bench will get a nice rest during the allstar break and our starters will get some much needed playing time!
  3. detteam

    detteam All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,499
    Likes Received:
    455
    Location:
    Troy
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I agree that LB was a control freak...and based on that...I think he knew EXACTLY what he wanted and he got it. I disagree STRONGLY with the notion that Flip knows what he wants. To me, Flip is like a kid in a candy store. The fact that he has not made good on his bench development promise shows how wrapped-up he is in the glory of what's transpired so far this season.
  4. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Just the facts, ma'am ...

    Rick played a deep rotation in Detroit because Joe's roster emphasized cheap yet decent players - we could count on outscoring other benches that had been depleted by too many max-contracts, and we actually counted on doing that because our starters were pretty average.

    Rick plays a deep rotation in Indy because his starters have been as fragile as glass (or prone to suspension, in one notable case), so everybody HAS to play ... especially when you've sunk big money into bench guys like Croshere and Bender.

    Obviously, we aren't in either position now. But don't let perspective get in the way of nostalgia.
  5. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    7
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Prick never had this starting 5. The dude played MICHAEL CURRY over Tayshaun. Nuff said.

    "The grass is always greener on the other side"
  6. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I have considered this and counted on someone making that point. While average/injury prone starters do provide more of an incentive for coaches to develop a bench- the lack of that incentive is no excuse for avoiding bench development.

    The Spurs, Mavericks, and Suns have all found ways of developing their benches and young players.
  7. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    The neighbor's grass is greener but our house is much nicer. Like I said RC had his faults, but he got the MOST out of his teams. We still won 50 games (best in the East) despite the Curry fascination, and he eventually unleashed Tay in the playoffs.

    What's disturbing to me is the fact that we aren't getting better. We have leveled off and may infact be regressing. And I am sick of the LIES! Flip says one thing and does another.
  8. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,409
    Likes Received:
    401
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Lets see.

    Carlisle used a 3 guy frontcourt set with Ben,Cliff and Zelly. Flip uses Ben, Sheed and Dyess. Carlisle started a bench player in Curry at the 3 and used Williamson heavily there also playing him at the 4. At the 3 Flip uses a valid NBA starter in Prince and subs in Evans/Delfino.

    Backcourt. Carlisle could not decide between Atkins and Barros in year 1 and platooned out the position. In year 2 he went with Atkins and subbed in Jones. Shooting guard was Stack/Barry with Barry sometimes playing the 3. Flip starts Billups/Rip which would be a no-brainder for any coach. Backups Arroyo, Evans and Delfino.

    Looks a lot alike except for Curry playing a lot less than Tay in the starting 3-spot. Was Carlisle saving Curry for the post-season?
  9. Sycamore Sam

    Sycamore Sam First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Fishers, IN
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    To say that "Flip uses Evans/Delfino as subs" at the 3 hardly makes any point. Then again, if 10-15 minutes out of those two helps you make your point, have at it. Evans would definitely agree with ya anyway.
    I'd tend to agree with G-rap here. The coach is supposed to advance the total team concept, not simply roll the ball out for the 5 starters.
  10. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    7
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    People forget how much Carlisle used to kill Ben with minutes (39.5mpg in 02-03). The fact is that he played who was given to him. He didn't have a legit starting SF or PF, so he gave the bench guys more minutes. That's just how it is. If you think he wouldn't lean on this starting 5 hard as well, then you're misguided. In fact, even the other guys that were here then (Chauncey and Rip, I won't count Tay), weren't near the players they are today. The only "Great" player he had, he played nearly 40 minutes per game.
  11. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,409
    Likes Received:
    401
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    My point is. If you look at teams that use their bench heavily at a particular position its because they do not have a valid starter for that spot. If all you have are 2 equal bench players for a position then the best course is to play the 2 equally. Like with Curry/Corliss. Both played around 20 MPG. You can debate who was better but Carlisle clearly thought the 2 were equal with what they brought and thus played them accordingly.

    If you have a guy that is clearly the best player at that spot then he is going to get most of the mins.

    Why does Indy play so many Centers and mainly O'Neal at the 4 ( when he is healthy ). Simple common sense here. The more Jermaine is out on the court instead of someone else Indy has a better chance of winning.

    Plenty of starters out there playing 40+. If you look at the Pistons starting mins they are not being overplayed as much as some think. The Wallace's simply are not going to be cut down to 24 mins apeice so Darko can play 20. Or Rip is not going to be limited to equal PT with Evans. This is not B-league .500 ball.
  12. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Carlisle's philosophy has always been about maximizing effort and productivity. If you play a starting caliber player 35+ minutes you may get good production, but it is generally impossible to get 100% effort from that player over the entire course of the game. The goal then is to find a balance- to get the most effort and most productivity over a certain amount of time. It's common sense...if a player is tired they won't exert as much effort and won't be as productive. So we want to avoid "tiredness". By playing lots of players and reducing PT (tiredness) you get LOTS of effort and usually better productivity.

    Now you say the starters aren't being overplayed. I disagree greatly. Can they play 40 minutes once and while...of course, they are highly tuned athletes, but if you play them that many minutes consistantly- wear and tear is unavoidable.

    In my opinion a 10 man rotation that limits the starters to under 35 minutes is ideal. A set rotation where everyone knows their role and comes prepared to give the most effort is the best environment for developing and improving. We know what to expect from the starting five, they have great chemistry and great balance- the bench just goes through the motions. Our bench doesn't have a set rotation, or set amount of playing time, because of this they have no identity and poor chemistry. They have no idea what to expect, as a result we don't know what to expect.

    Look at it like this. What's better: Sheed playing 30 minutes scoring 13pts on 48% shooting with some great efforts from Dyess and Davis/Darko. Or Sheed playing 40 minutes and scoring 20pts on 40% shooting?
  13. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,409
    Likes Received:
    401
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    No Piston is playing anywhere near 40 mins. Under 35 mins is getting into the Kyle Kover type of starter range. Sort of inbetween a bench and starter.

    Rip is 37th in the league in MPG, Billups 44th, Ben 45th, Tay 47th, and Sheed is 53rd.

    Allowances should be made when someone is playing hurt and we do need a 4th big in cases of foul trouble or injury. Other than that if anyone is getting exhausted playing 36 MPG ( which is about the average for a Piston Starter ) then he needs to start running laps in the off-season.
  14. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    There are VERY few 10 man rotations, so evidence of that being best is lacking. Hubie Brown came closest to doing it, I guess, and got very good results. But a lot of players hated it. Seems like deep rotations are most effective when player talents are so close that energy / rest might decide who can help most. Otherwise I don't think it does anything except let the coach show off.
  15. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,966
    Likes Received:
    37
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    Biggest problem with Flip is that he doesn't go to his bench early enough in games when he has an obvious opportunity to do so. I've loss count as to how many times we have been up by 18+ early in the fourth quarter just to see Flip wait until 4-5 mins are left to stick in the subs. A trend I have seen from Flip is that he will ride the starters for too long in the game, tired legs prevail, the lead slowly begins to dissipate, and before we know it, Flip is forced to keep the starters in for the rest of the game to close out. This is very frustrating to watch. But...... at this point I STILL wouldn't trade him for any other coach in the league. Although he is obviously not without his caveats, he has still earned my respect for molding Detroit into our most dominant team of the Going to Work era.
  16. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    997
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Howard Stubb's garage
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I'm sorry but I can't go along with the idea of RC coaching the Pistons. If you recall he was very rude to some of the secretarial staff...as well as some minor things like inability to make changes during a game, stall ball, chaining Tay to the bench, Mike Curry love...but mostly the way he treated the secretarial staff. I'm just not down with that.
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    20,375
    Likes Received:
    2,213
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    LOL.

    Let's see

    The Bad

    * stall ball - CHECK
    * likely benchers starting and starters coming off the bench - CHECK
    * putting washed up vets ahead of young talent - CHECK
    * Play calling coming exclusively from the bench - CHECK
    * Inability to scheme a matchup advantage - CHECK

    The Good
    * Effective use of timeouts (even if he's run out of them :laugh: )
    * Tempo control
    * Riding the "hot hand"
    * Preparation from practice

    I'll pass. We had our Cola era. It was necessary. Now it's time to look ahead, keep the good from RC and Brown while learning new tricks.
  18. Caliban

    Caliban First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I guess that's why Abyssinia has always had such problems.:ohwell:

    Freddy got a lot of things right, didn't he?
  19. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Bangor, WA
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I was just trying to be controversial, but besides MC, I never really had a problem with Carlisle's rotations. I didn't have a problem with LB right after we acquired Sheed and Mike James either, except when he refused to play Memo in that triple over time game vs. the Nets.

    Last season and this season our bench production has pretty much rested on Dyess' shoulders. I think we have a lot more talent that we can take advantage of.
  20. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southfield, MI
    Re: I'm starting to miss RCola

    I don't see this as a case of "the grass being greener" at all. To me it is all about wanting your cake and eating it too. It is demanding wins and then adding, ya also gotta do it in a manner most favorable to ME. At first blush I might ask isn't winning enough, dosen't success earn some leeway as to how it gets done.

    Having thought about it for a while I suppose many of us have similar feelings just because we're outside looking in and just don't know. We certainly care, but aren't privy to the reasons why things don't change as we think they shoud.

    Unfortunately the frustrations are never relieved until actions are taken, or deadlines pass.

    Best I can offer is Hang in there Dave.

Share This Page