Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Dec 1, 2012.
2004 Pistons........after all. We are the PF..........
Hmm. Think so? I had Wilt in there bc I heard that he high jumped like 6'7" in high school.
What's the rest of the board think? Who were the best fast-break big men? Bill Russell's been mentioned. Wilt? Could Kareem run? Hakeem? David Robinson? How do they all compare to KG or Dwight (the ones in the conversation whom I've wathed extensively).
Editing my fast-break / full-court press style team as we go along here...
C: Bill Russell.....Wilt Chamberlain?.....Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?
PF: LeBron James.....Dennis Rodman
SF: Kobe Bryant.....Dominique Wilkins
SG: Michael Jordan.....Reggie Miller
PG: Magic Johnson.....Steve Nash.....Walt Frazier
Thinking about some other great fast-break athletes too..
Shawn Kemp. Thinking more about Julius Erving. Almost thinking about Vince Carter.
And I looked into it. Wilt actually won the Big 8 (an old college division) high jump championship three years in a row. In addition to being one of the greatest volleyball players of all time, allegedly. That's quite athletic. He also allegedly ran the 100m dash in under 11 seconds.
C: Wilt Chamberlain.....Bill Russell.....Shaquille O'Neal (for half-court offense)
PF: LeBron James
SF: Kobe Bryant.....Dominique Wilkins.....Reggie Miller (for threes).....Dennis Rodman (for defense)
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Magic Johnson.....Steve Nash.....Walt Frazier (for defense)
Idk who the 12th man would be now. Seems sort of repetitive to have Russell and Rodman on the squad.
For a fast break big man, you need a guy who ignites the break with shot blocking and steals. You dont need him to run the floor when you have all those other crazy athletes. Height doesn't matter once you get out ahead of the defense.
Passing is another skill you'd want. Hakkem, kareem, or robinson would all be equally good.
Kareem's outlet passes to Magic were a thing of beauty.
Wasn't Bill Russell quite good in this regard as well?
I don't know, I never saw him play.
Thinking more and more about what style I want to run...
I want it to be a fast-break / full-court-press style team for sure. No doubt about that. Run, run, run. Wear down your oppenents - using your entire bench - over the course of a 48-minute game. Force turn-overs. Get easy buckets. Etc...etc...etc. So, what am I going to need? Superbly athletic players at all positions, of course. Obviously, you'd like to have great defensive players at all five positions as well (which usually goes hand-in-hand with athleticism). A big man who's a great outlet passer, and who can ignite the break. A point guard who can run a fast-break offense well. A four who can get down the middle and slam it home. A three and a two who can get down the wing, cut to the basket and fill it - or perhaps be available to knock down outside shots. And a five who's athletic enough to trail down the court and slam it down as well.
But, sometimes, the fast-break just isn't going to work. So, you need to be able to do some things out of the half-court set as well. Half-court basketball, there's nothing more important to me than a dominant interior low-post scorer. So, we'll need our big to be that as well. I'm also quite partial to the pick-and-roll game, our PG/C combo will have to be capable of this. I'm also quite partial to the penetrate and dish game, so we'll need to have a PG who can penetrate - and shooters at the 4, 3 and 2 positions for him to kick it out to. And, of course, I'm also quite partial to the Rip Hamilton/Reggie Miller/Allen Iverson shooting guard who runs through screens and gets open for mid-range shots. We'll need someone who can do that as well.
Now, I'll get to thinking about the actual players..
*oh, and we of course need team-oriented plaers who are all about the W.
Someone who's a great defender. A great, at least defensive, rebounder. Someone who's a great outlet passer. Someone who's athletic enough to run the floor. And someone who, if necessary, can dominate with his inside game.
K. Abdul-Jabbar. He might've not been strong enough to handle someone like Shaq at 7-2, 225lbs, but he was a first team all-nba defender 11 times. I think he was a solid defensive rebounder. I think he was a solid outlet passer. However, he might not be athletic enough to run the floor with this bunch. Definitely fits the bill as an interior scorer though - the NBA's all time leading point scorer, and recipient of a record six MVP awards. A good team-player too.
W. Chamberlain. I've actually never heard anything about his defense - being as athletic as he was though, I can't imagine that it'd be bad (especially if he didn't have to carry the load offensively). He was a solid rebounder, led the league in that several times. He was a solid passer - actually led the league in that once. He was certainly athletic enough, reportedly ran the 100m in dash in under 11 seconds, won a college division high-jump championship 3 times in a row. And obviously, a great interior scorer as well. Don't know whether or not he was a great team-player? (the assists suggest that he might've been). He might be the best candidate thus far.
B. Russell. Regarded by many as the greatest defensive big man of all time (though he's a bit on the small side). Regarded by many - along with Rodman - as the greatest rebounder of all time. Regarded by many as the greatest outlet passing big man of all time. Probably athletic enough to run with this bunch. Not a great interior scorer from what I've read - though he did win 5 MVP's. Possibly the greatest team player of all time. Interior scoring is really the only thing preventing him from being a sure thing choice.
S. O'Neal. His defense was never that great, despite being so enormous, from what I recall. I think he was at least a solid rebounder. I don't recall him ever being a great outlet passer. I don't think he'd be able to run with this group. Definitely someone who could dominate inside. And, his quality as a teammate is at least somewhat questionable. Outside looking in, I think.
H. Olajuwon. One of the best interior defenders of all time, league's all-time leading shot-blocker. A solid rebounder from what I recall. Don't remember much about his passing (anyone?). I remember him being a good athlete, but could he run the court? (anyone?). Definitely someone who could dominate with his inside game too. And, from all accounts, a superb teammate.
M. Malone. No one's mentioned him yet, for some reason, but he did win 3 MVP awards. I've never heard much about his defense (anyone?). He was one of the best rebounders of all-time, and the very best offensive rebounder of all time. I've never heard much about his passing (anyone?). I've never heard much about him being able to run the court (anyone?). Not a traditional dominant, go-to, interior scorer...but he did score a lot of points on put-backs and what not. Never heard much about him as a teammate (anyone?). Obviously, I don't know a ton about him, but probably on the outside looking in.
B. Walton. No one's mentioned him yet either. Never heard much about his defense. Never heard much about his rebounding, but I can't imagine it would've been that bad. Regarded to as the greatest passing big man of all time. Never heard much about his ability to run the court, though I'd imagine it wasn't that great. A very skilled offensive player. A very good teammate. Again, don't know a ton about him, but probably on the outside looking in.
D. Robinson. He was a very solid defender. A very solid rebounder. Never heard much about his passing (anyone?). A solid athlete, don't know how well he ran the court though (anyone?). A very good interior player. A very good teammate. He's a candidate, for sure. Seems like it'd be hard for him to get ahead of Hakeem, though.
G. Mikan. He was a great interior scorer from what I've read, but I know nothing else about him, and he played so long ago that he's probably not very relevant.
P. Ewing. A solid defender. A solid rebounder. Don't know much about his passing (anyone?). Don't know how well he ran the court (anyone?). A good interior scorer, and a great outside shooter. A good teammate and leader. Possibly an outside candidate, but it'd be hard for him to pass the likes of Hakeem and Robinson.
D. Howard. The contemporary choice. A great defender. A solid rebounder. Don't know much about him as a passer. Runs the court exceptionally. Not a very skilled interior scorer, but he gets a lot of points. Mediocre teammate, I guess would be safe to say. A candidate.
I'll get to some of the bigger PF's later.
Right now I'm thinking.....1) Wilt. 2) Russell. 3) Jabbar or Olajuwon.
Jabbar vs. Olajuwon has a lot to do with...was Olajuwon a good passer? And, who could run the court better? Dwight is actually sort of in this mix, depending on how those questions are answered (the man can run).
Interior scoring skill puts Wilt ahead of Russell, even though Russell might be the better pure-fast break big.
Shaq doesn't really garner much consideration, as interior scoring is about all he brings to the mix. Robinson and Ewing are just behind Hakeem, IMO. Walton and Malone idk enough about, but what I do know makes me think that they'd be left out. Mikan, too long ago to be relevant.
Might just be talking to myself here at this point, lol. But I think I've come to a final decision...
C: W. Chamberlain, B. Russell, H. Olajuwon
PF: L. James, D. Wilkins
SF: K. Bryant, J. Erving
SG: M. Jordan, R. Miller
PG: M. Johnson, O. Robertson, W. Frazier
Wilt's the starting big man for me. He's an incredible athlete that can run the floor for this fast-break team. He's an incredible scorer who can get points in the paint, and run some pick and roll, when you have to go half-court. He should be a fine defensive post-player - being as big and athletic as he is - now that he doesn't have to carry his team offensively. He's going to be more than solid as a defensive rebounder (for those same reasons), and he's a great passer, so he'll be able to ignite the fast-break.
LeBron is the starting four for me. Arguably the greatest athlete in the history of the game (along with Wilt and MJ). He's going to be great in this fast-break offense. Also one of the most skilled scorers in the history of the game. He can hang out on the wing and knock down three's in the half-court offense as well (along with so, so many other things). A terrific defender, he's big and strong enough to guard most 4's in the game's history, and he'll be a great defensive player when he doesn't have to carry the load offensively.
Kobe's the starting three for me. Again, one of the greatest athletes of all time. He's going to be great in this fast-break offense. Like LeBron, also one of the most skilled scorers in the history of the game. He too can hang out on the wing and knock down three's in the half-court offense (along with so many other things). Also a terrific defensive player, he's big and strong enough to guard most 3's in the game history, and he'll be superb in that regard not having to carry the load offensively.
MJ's the starting two for me. Once again, arguably the greatest athlete in the history of the game. He's going to be outstanding in a fast-break offense. Also, the most skilled scorer in the history of the game. He's going to be great as the go-to scorer in the half-court offense. Probably the best defensive player ever at his position as well.
Magic's the starting point for me. An incredible athlete, the best fast-break lead guard of all time. And such a skilled scorer in the half-court offense. A great penetrate and dish, pick and roll, get his own bucket player. NOT the greatest defender though...the one draw-back I see in this starting rotation.
Bill Russell. Probably the best fast-break big of all time - with his athleticism and outlet passing. But I went with Wilt because he was close in those regards, and a much better half-court scorer. Russell's going to get plenty of minutes on this squad. Probably would be the best defensive power forward of all-time (along with Rodman?).
Dominque Wilkins. Quite similar to LeBron, really. That's why he's on this team. An ubber-athletic three who's big and strong enough to play the four, and skilled enough to play from the wing in the half-court set (I like the 4-out, 1-in look). He'll get enough minutes spelling LeBron.
Julius Erving. Another one of the greatest athletes and best scorers of all-time. Just a hair behind Michael and Kobe in most regards. He'll be a valuable backup to both.
Reggie Miller. Probably the second best pure shooter in the game's history. Behind Bird probably, but I chose to go with Reggie because he's athletic enough to run with this bunch. He'll be a dangerous weapon off the bench.
Oscar Robertson. Almost unanimously agreed upon as the second best point guard of all-time behind Magic. A terrific athlete who could pick up the fast-break lead while Magic needs a rest. Again though, not a great defender.
Hakeem Olajuwon. He did a hundred things terrificly in the league, but he's here because he's the best defensive big of all time, IMO.
Walt Frazier. Not the third best point guard of all-time, but the best defensive one for sure - something Magic and Oscar lack - so he's here.
*Imagine this defensive lineup for closing out leads / matching up against problem scorers: C: H. Olajuwon, PF: B. Russell, SF: L. James, SG: M. Jordan, PG: W. Frazier. Arguably the greatest defensive players at each of the five positions.
Head Coach: Chuck Daly (reasons explained already)
Assistant Coach: Don Nelson (to help Chuck out with the fast-break)
I like it Blue. That is a fine team you have assembled and even though Bill Russell won more, I would give Wilt the nod to start because he is probably the superior athlete and a fine physical specimen.
If that team were thrown together with no practice, could they beat the 2004 Finals version Pistons? That would be a fun game to watch.
I want to play a fun game, lol. Pick the best starting 5 you can think of (trust me, it's too hard to get 12 deep). Then let's match our squads up against eachother and argue who would win to death. Mine is...drumroll...
C: H. Olajuwon
PF: L. James
SF: K. Bryant
SG: M. Jordan
PG: M. Johnson
(subject to change)
Separate names with a comma.