If I got Joe-D's job tomorrow.. (how can it be so easy!?)

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    panda, if moose keeps playing like he did last night? he is not fine, for some reason he has REALLY taken a step back and it has nothing to do with the back court. It has everything to do with Moose being affraid to pull the trigger when he is being left wide open by the defence. Opponents are defenitely getting the scouting report on Moose this year when he is away from the hoop, and the scouting report goes like this...1) back off and expect a drive every time..he is affraid to shoot so give him all the room he needs anywhere five feet or further, allow him to jab step til he tires himself out and he will eventually pass to another player with less than 5 on the shot clock. or he will throw up a prayer and scream"and 1" and mope all the way back on defence.
     
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  2. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Totally NAILED IT!
     
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  3. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Pistons need to add more talent. Moose needs to be the 3rd or 4th option on offense, at best. If he is your go-to guy, you are in trouble.
     
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  4. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Perhaps I came off a bit harsh.

    It could work. I don't think it's realistic; I think it takes more than talent to win in this league, that team chemistry is underrated, and that a losing culture can be very difficult to get rid of.

    That being said, your scenario, while it might work, seems implausible. The problem is that it requires a lot of different things to go your way in order for that to happen, and I don't think the players and coach are going to tank. If word got out that you were telling your coach to lose ballgames (which you would have to do if the players and coach were as good as I think you're hoping), then you'd be fined and fired and kicked out of the league. The whole draft system is set up precisely to avoid that type of thing, and I don't doubt for a second that David Stern would go ape-**** on you for pushing for it.

    There was a study done awhile ago where two groups of sports fans were asked to offer a hypothetical player a contract. The first group was told that the player had been a part of the team for 4 years, and had averaged 14 points and 8 boards a game over his first four seasons (I'm guessing on the numbers here, but they really aren't that important). The second group was told that the team just drafted a player that they expected would average 14 points and 8 boards a game over his first four years. The assignment for both groups was to tell the researchers how much money they would offer to resign that player for his second contract; the first group offered something like $4 million on their contracts and the second group recommended something like $6 million.

    The researchers showed what we can all recognize; we go nuts for potential. We love it. We love the possibility of being great, of the fresh and the new. We love draft picks primarily because they're new, we don't know exactly what's going to happen, and that excites us.

    We know what we have in Monroe - we have a guy whose ceiling is, at best, a little higher than it is right now; about 15/9, with a few assists tossed in. He's not an athletic beast, but he works hard, is a solid rebounder and a better-than-advertised defender, and has somewhat unique passing skills that can be effectively utilized. How do you replace them? Are you going to find a veteran free agent to overpay, or are you banking on being able to draft Jabari Parker two years from now?

    I wish Monroe was better, but he has his limitations. I think Knight can get better, and I see improvement that makes me hopeful (though he has a ways to go). I'm blown away by Drummond's ability right now, but the reality is that, athletic as he is, he's still only a 13/13 per 36 and he still does silly things at bad times like when he was out of position against Horford in that Atlanta game and that goofy jumping jack that allowed Robinson the bailout assist last night. Overall, his presence is definitely positive, but there are so many mitigating factors in all of it that I have to remind myself that I'm excited as much (if not more) by his potential as his actual performance (although those alley-oops and breakaways are really awesome to watch).

    As for Villanueva, he's not as bad a defender as you're making him out to be. He's not quick, and that gets him burned sometimes, but basketball-reference.com has him as the second-best defender on the team among rotational players (admittedly, that may be somewhat of an indictment of their system) and 82games.com shows him as giving up easily the least amount of opponent production among all of the bigs. He gets caught out of position at times, but he's doing something right or he wouldn't have those numbers. And you want to basically pay him to not play.

    That aside, I think the whole potential thing is where your mistake lies. The bust-rate at the top of the draft is about 50/50, and you're relying on those guys not busting and leading the team when the Pistons have gotten pretty good production out of its recent picks. What happens if McLemore and Muhammad bust out? What happens if Burke doesn't adjust to the speed of the NBA game or can't guard bigger opposing points?

    I tend to be a glass-is-half-full type of guy, but banking on getting certain guys is risky, risky, risky. I think the Pistons are a lot closer to being a contender than a lot of people give them credit for - they've been playing right with the best teams in the league on a nightly basis (the game in London notwithstanding), and only really need a true shooting guard (none of this combo-guard crap) to man the 2. Monroe is a top-10 center, Drummond could be a top-2 or 3 center within a couple years, and Knight shows flashes of being a capable point guard (he's not there yet). If Frank can balance his starters offensively, they'll be a very good group.
     
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  5. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    How has he taken a step back? That is utterly absurd.

    He is the exact same player, except, before he has someone with a credible jumpshot in Maxiell, and didn't have another paint dominator. Last year, he was considered an All star snub. His passing skills are getting better if anything, he finishes well at the rim, he can dribble, he has a nose for rebounds. His defense is passable, and he can play 35 fairly efficient minutes a game.

    The problem is exactly the team and any argument otherwise is frankly, unwarranted and innacurate.
     
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  6. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    you think Moose is better/ same as last year? He isnt even shooting the jumper that he did last year, he is not finishing anywhere near as well as he did last year...he has completely forgoten the drop step that he used well last year. and he spends every friggin game crying for and 1s and not even bothering to get back on defence after he throws up a garbage prayer after an out of control drive because he refuses to shoot a jumper.He is worse than last year.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I didn't see a lot of Drummond last year because I didn't have access to regular Pistons games, but I am fairly unimpressed with him right now. That said, the offense doesn't feature him, and most of his baskets come from broken plays. Not much is run for him, and he has no business being on the high block all the time.

    On the other hand, he's abysmal on defense unless it's a post up. It's not his lack of hops, although that doesn't help, but his lack of awareness. This is not a guy who makes plays on defense, at all.
     
  8. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm assuming that you meant Monroe (rather than Drummond).

    I think Greg needs some coaching i on the defensive end.
    The dude's quick on his feet and can be an above average "position defender" in the NBA by simply being in the right place at the right time and holding his spot on the floor. He's never gonna fly around swatting shots into the stands but his quick feet and hands (steals) will serve him well.

    He looked better on 'D' last year. It might of had something to do with Ben Wallace always being in his ear.
     
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  9. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Jabaaaaarrrrriiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  10. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    1) To each his own (opinon)
    3) No, but we've sure been losing fan support and money, arguably to the same degree that we would be if we WERE tanking.
    4) Quite debatable, as to whether he fits in or not with Drummond.
    7) Who said anything about "bottom dollar"?9) I'm arguing that higher picks = more, better options. And I'm right.

    *Disagree.
     
  11. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    He can become an above average defender of post-up 4's. It's the league's growing trend of stretch 4's that concerns me wrt Greg's D.
     
  12. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    I mean...

    True.
     
  13. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    For sure. And idk how we get that without having a high pick or two.
     
  14. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    True, of Gregg.
     
  15. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Maybe not a step back, but the same issues are still quite apparent.
     
  16. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    1) Appreciate that.

    2) It does take more than talent to win in this league. That being said, there's still nothing more important in this league than talent. Furthermore, I don't think that we have great team chemistry right now, or that we're even in the process of developing it. It seems to me that a group of highly talented 20 year olds coming up in the league together - under the right guidance, of course - might have a better shot at developing great chemistry. Also, I think the "losing culture" thing is a bit overblown. We've been trying to avoid - according to Joe-D - having a losing culture here since we traded Chauncey, and look what it's gotten us: a team full of losers. The OKC Thunder's talent had no problem overcoming this culture.

    3) If you're starting a group of 20 year olds, you're not going to have to try that hard to tank. It could be done quite subtly.

    4) I enjoyed reading your post, but my take on this team isn't a large philosophical one (regarding "potential" vs. ..whatever). 1) I don't think Monroe fits in with Drummond. I'd rather go with Drummond. I'd therefore like to see what we could get for Monroe. I think a top 3-5 pick would probably be the best we could get. 2) I just plain think Burke is a better basketball player than Knight. 3) I just plain think that we'd still need to add another talented player or two in order to ever win a championship again - and the draft, to me, seems to be our best shot at acquiring said players. I realize that those high draft picks are going to be far from a sure thing, but I'm the kind of guy who would rather take that chance than stick with something I'm quite sure isn't going to work (winning a championship is my goal; nothing less). We might be competing with some upper-end teams in the regular season right now, but an intense, serious 7 game series is a completely different animal.

    5) Defensive metrics, meh. I've got eyes. I'm not sure I've ever seen a worst defender than Villanueva (perhaps Daye or Knight?). And I'm quite sure his attitude/presence is having a negative affect on those around him. I think he's a cancer.
     
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    if I were Dumars I would fire myself and personally appologize to the entire Piston fan base for my job performance since 2005.
     
  18. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I still think that you can do some things to drastically improve this team this summer:

    #1. In the draft (if we actually get a pick, if we don't it's because we found our way into the playoffs). If we get a lucky ping-pong ball we grab McClemore or Muhammed. If we draft late in the lottery we grab a PG. We might be able to grab Otto Porter at SF, a guy whose stock has began to rise again; but I think PG and SG is our most pressing need over SF.

    #2. Free agency. I still think that if you took THIS team and subbed out Maxiel for Millsap and OJ Mayo for Singler, we'd be the 4th or 5th best team in the East right now. Both of those players will be available this summer.

    #3. The Big Splash. First and foremost Joe HAS to get rid of Stuckey, then BoT and ultimately Tayshaun. Let's assume we barely miss the playoffs and end up with a late lottery pick, maybe we can send that pick to Memphis with Tay and Stuckey in exchange for Rudy Gay? That move would probably cost us Trey Burke (but for some reason I just don't think Joe is sold on Burke anyway). That move wouldn't cost us any cap space and we could still have about $26M in cap space. You can use that $26M and go after Josh Smith (or Millsap if Smith looks like a long-shot) and OJ Mayo.
    PG: Brandon Knight / Bynum (at the vet min)​
    SG: OJ Mayo / Singler​
    SF: Rudy Gay / Singler / JJ​
    PF: Josh Smith / Monroe / JJ​
    C: Andre Drummond / Monroe / TRG​
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I meant Monroe. My brain is ....
     
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Never going to happen. I mean, the chances are so slim, I am not even sure they merit posting.

    You gotta be real Greg. What we want, and what Joe will do are worlds apart.
     

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