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Gordon and Villanueva to the Pistons

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    No Doubt, I hear ya, but many folks seem to think that Kobe's and LeBrons grow on trees and all you have to do is open up the cap room and VOILA!!!!

    I mean seriously these are great signings!!!! Dollar for Dollar, we got some steals. Think about this last year, James Jones, Pietrus, and Posey ALL got the full MLE, we basically just signed a 24 year old 6'11" PF that really can ball (he needs to learn how to win though) essentially for the MLE!!! That's a steal!
     
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    I would not pay much attention to them. Most seem to think Jason Kidd was the top FA this year. Most of the analysis does not extend past what they can do this year.
     
  3. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    I think most believe we got the most highly coveted FA of the year (at least to a young team). The issue some have is that these guys wouldn't be in the top 10 next year. So, why not wait? And since we didn't wait, we've got to make a STRONG playoff run THIS season (2nd round or better), or the signings will look like a panic move (ala Nazr a couple years back). Joe can't think this team has a chance at the 2010 title, can he?

    There is such a thing as knowing when to be patient as a GM. He was very patient with the "Starting 5" from 5 years ago, but as soon as it's time to rebuild, he went and threw money at the 2 best guys he saw at that moment. I just worry that he wanted to save some face after the Billups debacle by adding decent pieces as soon as he could, rather than trying to put this team in the best possible position to win titles in the future. As is, this is a team with mediocre to poor defenders all around, no legit paint scoring post player, a combo (if not SG) running the point, no superstar, no legit starting Center, or interior help defenders. We also don't have cap-space on the horizon to fill these holes.

    My concern is that Joe is building this team to be competitive, not win titles. It will be a young team that I will enjoy watching for sure, but I just don't see a team that is in position to become elite barring some big trade falling in our lap (which I don't believe you can count on as a GM).
     
  4. Stun

    Stun First Round Draft Pick

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    Please do remember that when Dumars got Billups and Hamilton the team looked the same like now.It looked like it can compete and go far,but not win a title.In one season Dumars saw what we needed and did the needed adjusments.Ok I don't expect the same with this team,but the team needs a season or two to see the problems.
     
  5. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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  6. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Well, it took us getting extremely lucky by having Rasheed fall in our lap. I don't think you can count on that happening twice. Not to mention we're counting on another cast of relative outcasts coming together and having all of them exceed expectations. The '04 team is not something you can just try to recreate. As recent history shown, teams built without superstars have a difficult time winning the whole thing. The '04 team was an aberration that won because of 5 world class defenders and a HOF coach, and rules were "changed" (or reinforced) to stop that.
     
  7. lovingj

    lovingj First Round Draft Pick

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    Therein lies the dilemma. Maybe we are not building around big time defenders anymore as a direct result of the rule changes. Looks to me as if Joe is looking for shooters and if you have a coach who emphasizes defense we could overcome the shortcoming of a bunch of defenseless stalwarts. Look at how much the Lakers have improved in the defense department.
     
  8. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Saving face is not limited to media outlets. You think the people cutting his check aren't concerned about the abrupt drop in attendance? There is a lot of pressure on Joe to make this team turn around quickly. Sometimes that keeps you from looking at the long-term. The best chance for legit title contention.

    Why would I want to delete it? Sure, Joe is hoping for titles in the long term, but the pressing matter was getting people interested again, and filling the seats. Rome wasn't built in a day, you're exactly right. But this is what Joe seems to be trying to do. Rather than laying a solid foundation, and being patient, he tried to whip something together overnight. That may pay off next year with some increased interest, but doesn't necessarily lead to ultimate success.

    Without significant cap space for the foreseeable future, yet a solid enough team to avoid the depths of the lottery, we're going to have to get seriously lucky on a few trades to become elite. I'm not trying to be negative. Just realistic.
     
  9. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    if it is true then you cant blame Dumars because of his hands are tied.

    well, another scenario were to be falling deeper to lottery, hope for good picks and somehow try to convince one of FA superstars to join with Detroit for max money. This scenario is even less promising

    2004 title is closely tied with luck involving many trades: Rip to Stackhose; signing future DPOY; Sheed trade. All they were lucky because of Dumars at this time actually did not want to loose Grant Hill.

    I'm writing it only to remind how lucky Dumars were and that won't be different in the future too.
     
  10. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    FP, I don't think luck has anything to do with it. It's being in the right place at the right time holding the right pieces. Lakers pulled almost an identical deal when they brought in Pau Gasol. The thing is, if you don't have the flexibility at the time an opportunity like Sheed or Gasol signing presents itself, you won't be able to take advantage of it.
     
  11. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    BTW, I don't subscribe to the notion that Joe is an impulsive person who is consumed by knee-jerk reactions. If anything, he always seem to give himself a way out with all his decisions. I wouldn't be surprised if he alredy has a plan B of packaging Villanueva in 2 years for some player that none of us at the moment suspect.

    Please save me the "but what about the Darko debacle or the Nazr signing? That proves Joe's an idiot LOL" bit. I'm not advocating that Joe is some sort of deity who is never wrong. He has made mistakes, yes. But, he always seems to be in a position to wheel and deal.
     
  12. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Great post.
     
  13. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    You don't build a title contender from scratch or from spare parts. You get competative first. Then you tweak what you can to get over the hump.
     
  14. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Charlie is going to be a beast this season. Want to see something funny, go compare Rashard Lewis and Charlie V's #'s; and then compare what they'll make this season.
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yeah, 21+9 in 36 minutes. Sick. We haven't had a scoring big man like that since Lanier.
     
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    Because 2010 is going to be a big friggen letdown for anyone counting on it. The top guys are either going to re-sign with their teams or be traded mid-season to a team that they will re-sign with. It happens every time. No team is going to let their top guy walk for nothing.

    Besides who would want to come to a team that only won 20 some games like we would have? Better to strike now while you still have some street cred.

    I said it before and I will write it again - We were extremely fortunate to get what we did this off-season. Not in the top 10? The guy is only 24 years old. Lets say we did wait until 2010 and did happen to land a guy for 20 mil/yr. What good would it be singing up a 28 year old with all your spare cap space when he would be well past 30 by the time we were competitive again?

    You guys would have been hating it back in 01 when Ben Wallace was signed. probably would have thought CB was a busto of a sign as well.
     
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I wonder if Joe is packing on salaries that he can trade for a superstar next season....
     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That might be more realistic than having them come here voluntarily.
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Sure, because their max deals will be tied to their Bird rights, which can only be transferred via trade.

    For those who don't get that part, bird rights are acquired when a player has not changed teams over 3 years via free agency. So if I sign Charlie V to a 4 year deal, and in year 3 trade him to Chicago, and in year 4 they trade him to Sacramento, Sactown has his Bird Rights when he becomes a free agent.

    That means Sactown can offer him a contract one year longer, and with more raises year to year, than any outside bidder. The player can get the best offer from Sacramento, and thus Sacramento has a very good chance to retain the player.

    Likewise, if any expiring stars are traded next year, they will take their Bird Rights to their new team. So when their contract ends next summer, that last team to have them, will have the most money to spend to retain them.

    Also, Bird Rights are not cap sensitive. You can be $20 million over the cap, and still max your own bird rights player out.
     
  20. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Rashard Lewis (Charlie V)
    6'10" (6'11")
    Age 29 (24)
    MPG: 36.2 (26.9)
    FG%: 45.8 (44.7)
    3Pt%: 39.1 (34.5)
    FT%: 80.8 (83.8)
    PPG: 17.7 (16.2)
    RPG: 5.8 (6.7)
    2009/10 Salary: $18,876,000 (Under $6M)

    And people think we got a bad deal with THIS signing!!!! He is literally a poor man's Rashard Lewis, but give our boy another year and folks will be calling Rashard Lewis an overpaid Villanueva!!!!
     

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