Discussion in 'November 2013' started by roscoe36, Oct 21, 2013.
It was the excellent Warriors crew calling the game.
Next game is against Sacto!!!
The Pistons out rebounded the Warriors 16-10 on the offensive glass!
The Pistons were out rebounded 33-18 on the defensive glass!!
The Pistons lost by 18 and it wasn't that close!!!
Hopefully this loss shook the rotation out and they can leave some of the dead weight on the bench.
How 'bout that missed dunk by KCP streaking up the court. How are they supposed to use someone like that?
I think Jennings Bucks teams typically started slowly as well.
Let's win the next 2 and forget about these.
Hard to get defensive boards when they never miss.
No defense and no offense. The Pistons look like they have no system in place. They can't guard the high pick and roll and players are so out of place that now even the interior defense is gone. The team would be better off taking away the three outside (overplaying) and forcing players to drive while playing a loose interior zone. I wouldn't double anyone. Every time they double, someone is wide open since there is no rotation.
The team has no offense. Don't let the points fool you. Most are in garbage situations. I worry that Jennings is getting pushed around a bit similar to Bynum. He doesn't really have anyone to pass to though. Monroe still cannot get needed baskets as a go to guy. Drummond competed well as if playing by himself. He was the bright spot.
The role players have been pretty bad. The team has gotten nothing from Singler, JJ, very little from Stuckey, who just doesn't fit and very little from Bynum (if you factor in his pluses and minuses). The team will have to deal soon--I would imagine.
You have to wonder what system the coach is putting in place? Pope will have to start as there is no pressure on the ball at all. He can provide some. If Stuckey plays, echoing Lee, he should play some at point. Datome can shoot but does the team need yet another guy with no defense on the perimeter?
Let's see of this team can compete with the weaker teams coming up.
This is a good point, for years the Pistons have seemed averse to implementing a system. It's like they're playing pick up ball.
I was reading a Zach Lowe piece yesterday where he was praising the T'Wolves for running a system that benefited the 4 below average defenders they started and it made me think of the Pistons.
The big line-up has killed the Magic-lite stuff the Pistons had success with last year. To Drummond's credit he has found a way to still be impactful. You got to wonder how many other guys on the roster you could say the same about. I think Bynum and Singler have been impacted by this as well.
For now, hopefully Datome and KCP are in and Singler and Stuckey are out.
The Pistons have some problems.
Let's get the obvious out of the way; this is a surprisingly bad defensive team. As good as they're supposed to be on the glass, they've been outrebounded in every game in this four-game streak. Smith can't guard the perimeter like I thought he could and his weaknesses as a shooter limit his ability out there; he needs to go back to being a down-low PF, but can't because Monroe and Drummond would be even worse on the wing. Add in the defensive limitations of Jennings and Billups, and you have a recipe for perimeter disaster. Since Jennings has returned, the Pistons have allowed every team to shoot above their average 3p%. But lest you think this is just a perimeter thing, the Pistons are even worse inside; opponents are shooting 52.8% on 2-pointers.
This team needs a lineup shakeup. The talent is there, but the defense and balance is not. They need guys that are playing in position, which a lot of them are not. Jennings has the talent to play point, but he's playing like a shooting guard, falling back on his tendency to take too many bad shots. His shot selection is actually a bit of a barometer for how he feels about his teammates - the past couple nights he did not demonstrate much in the way of trust.
If you're going to keep Jennings at the point (which feels like their best option right now), then you have to give him an adequate defensive wing to play alongside him - someone like, oh, I don't know... Pope, maybe? Then at SF you need someone that can defend the perimeter - someone like, oh, I don't know... Singler, maybe? Yeah, Lee, I know... Singler isn't a SF. But here's what I do know - the following two lineups played even-up with one of the best starting units in basketball last night: Jennings/Stuckey/Pope/Mitchell/Monroe (5 minutes in the second) and Jennings/Pope/Singler/Monroe/Drummond (6 1/2 minutes in the third).
Jennings was -31 and Monroe was -29, but they were -25 in the 10:40 they played concurrently with Smith, and -6 together without him. For each of them having a bad shooting night (11-29, or 38% combined), that's to be expected.
They have to break up these lineups. I don't care that Smith is making $13.5 million a year - if it's not working (and it's not), then Cheeks needs to rebalance his rotations. Move Drummond or Smith or Monroe to the bench, and start either Singler or KCP (or both if you relegate Chauncey to the backup spot, where he belongs). You don't need three post defenders, and that's essentially what the Pistons have in Smith, Drummond and Monroe.
The one thing I've determined from this losing streak is that Singler absolutely needs a bigger role!
Let's face it....Mo was dealt a hand that only a few coaches could handle with two questionable stars that no one else really wanted. They both have flaws that we are witnessing during this first two weeks of the season that basketball purists warned us of.
Mo has played everyone trying to experiment with the rotation. Hopefully we can get this together before the end of the month and salvage an exciting season.
I know the stats aren't there - as you've mentioned - but the results are. He, Pope and Bynum lead the team in +/- (3.9, 3.8, and 2.6 respectively), and frankly, a big reason for that is that they don't go out there and gunk up the floor. Basically, those numbers are good because they're not Josh Smith at the 3. Their individual results aren't pretty, but everyone else plays better when those guys are on the floor. And it doesn't matter whether or not they're playing against starters or backups, they are empirical evidence of what the advanced stats people keep saying - that team balance and floor spread are unappreciated variables that this Pistons team is not built upon.
I'd much prefer to see the following two lineups, personally:
Starters - Jennings/Stuckey/Pope/Smith/Monroe
Bench - Billups/Singler/Jerebko/Datome/Drummond
It's early, but here are a few observations.
Mo has been consistently putting baffling player groups out on the floor. He could be experimenting, or he could be proving a point to his team. Either way it's been insanity. Playing Singler at the 4? Putting Stuckey on Durant? Playing Bynum and Stuckey together with Smith, Moose, and Dre? The list goes on and on. His most talented five man group is BJ, Stuckey, Smith, Moose, and Dre. That line up can't function. This team is simply not built to have its most talented players on the floor at the same time. You need to rotate them.
I've been reasonably impressed with Smith's defense at the 3 spot. Offensively, he takes too many bad shots from there. If he MUST shoot threes, then they need to be from the corner. He can actually make it from there. If he's shooting them from up top, then it's probably a wasted possession. If Mo insists on continuing to start Smith at the 3, then he needs to pull a big man early in each half, and split the rest of the minutes at the 3 between Singler and Gigi. Those two guys solve a lot of our shooting problems.
This team looks confused on offense, and hesitant on defense. GS was decisive all night on both ends. The Pacers looked like they knew how to close out a NBA game. The Pistons were looking around for someone to do it for them. Hopefully, this is simply a function of all the new faces, and it works itself out as guys become more familiar with each other and the system. Otherwise, this is going to be a long year.
Stuckey has been effective when being played at the SF spot with either Gigi or Kyle up top. It lets him slash from the wing and shoot the corner 3. It won't last with Stuckey. It never does. Ever.
Brandon Jennings continues to be a selfish chucker. Where's the P & R game? Why isn't he pushing the ball?
Greg Monroe is a max money big man.
I don't think Billups is the problem. He isn't helping much, but he's not the problem. He's one of our only guards who can shoot the three ball, and his presence seems to keep BJ in line. His minutes should be limited to around 20 a game. Where he plays depends what other guards are in the rotation.
As I see it, we need time to gel, and we need to solve our rotation issues.. Mo must limit Smith's SF minutes to 13-14 per game, if not eliminate them all together. Mo needs to set aside 30-35 minutes a night for Gigi and Singler. Like it or not, those are our SFs.
Mo must decide between Bynum and Stuckey. If it's Bynum, then Billups and Pope should split the SG spot. If it's Stuckey, then Billups moves over to the PG spot and Stuckey and Pope split time at the 2. Stuckey can play on the wing if he's on the floor with BJ/Billups and Singler/Gigi, which gives us two shooters up top and lets Stuckey work from the wing.
I hate turning this into a rotations thread. ...Heck, I don't even like posting in the actual rotations thread.
We have enough good players on this team that we don't have to use the bad ones.
Heck, we can even play the good ones in their appropriate roles!
PG - Jennings, Bynum, Billups
SG - Pope, Billups, Singler [whoever has the hot hand or the better matchup gets the bulk of the bench minutes]
SF - Smith (to start each half), Datome, Singler [whoever has the hot hand or the better matchup gets the bulk of the bench minutes]
PF - Monroe, Smith
C - Drummond, Monroe [TWO of Monroe, Smith and Drummond are ALWAYS on the floor in non-garbage time]
That's the a solid 8-10 man rotation that can be made from this roster.
If Jerebko and/or Mitchell can earn themselves some time by working hard and staying ready? ...cool. Let them take someone else's job.
That's where I have to disagree with you - Smith should not be playing the three. He doesn't play effective defense on the perimeter and he's not an efficient enough of a perimeter scorer to make up for it. He's a 4, period.
If it was me, I would probably use Smith as a 35 mpg sixth man. Whether or not he would throw a fit is unclear. There is some benefit to having him start and play the first 7 minutes or so of each half at the 3. He's a nice defensive match up with guys like Lebron, Paul George, and Melo.
Our pick and roll defense is atrocious-period. And it's everyone's fault, even our beloved Andre Drummond. He NEVER rotates back on defense after he hedges....if he hedges; Monroe is even worse. Smith is an awful defender as a SF, he's hates chasing guys off the ball and he hates rotating out to the perimeter. Brandon Jennings is so easily picked it's laughable. Billups is just bad. With the exception of Billups this isn't a personnel issue, it's about playing together, focus, discipline and being on the same page with your teammates.
I don't like to be negative, but last night was very frustrating for me.
The Warriors sure looked good!
I think the Pistons defense sucks so far. They tend to always crowd the paint, they don't defend outside shooters well, and they often seem confused when the opponent makes more than one pass, forget about it when they encounter a strong pick, etc. etc. I think most of these things can and will improve over the season.
Even though their defense is atrocious, they are still all NBA players, and they played quite a few defensive stands perfectly last night. And it didn't matter, because Golden State is loaded up with guys who can score no matter what. If that team stays healthy, they will be hard for anyone to handle.
I watched the game from above last night. All offense consisted of either Smith or Jennings jacking up long contested jumpers or giving Monroe the ball with everyone else just watching what he is going to do. Defense was non-existant. The double-teams on defense have been painful to watch with no rotation to cover open players who were going for easy layups or dunks or wide open threes.
Bynum looked for his many times without involving others. Stuckey should be limited to 20 minutes off the bench as hasn't been able to do much on offense and Pope is definitely a stronger defender. Pope should be starting. Datome has a sweet stroke and he can pass the rock, but he can't play defense being too slow and just not being strong enough to body up anyone.
In last night's game all of our worries about the 2 newly acquired players were on display - Jennings was just jacking up shots, without involving anyone else other than Monroe, Smith was shooting long jumpers while having a smaller defender on him and just not having his mind in the game. Stuckey still can't shoot and with middle clogged up he was just useless on offense. Jerebko and Singler are who they are, just role players. Monroe tried, but he didn't have much in terms of support, so he had to try to create on his own playing against a very good defender in Bogut. He seems to over-compensate on defense by taking risks and ending up being out of position with the player he was guarding getting easy buckets. Dre had a good game doing his things, but he needs more work on defensive rotations and positioning.
The entire team just didn't seem to be into the game and the body language showed that they just weren't up for it. Cheecks seems to be very calm and he looked as if he was just looking at the game as an observer, not a coach.
It may be too early to call, but I am not liking Mo much as a coach so far. I get that he was hamstrung by the injuries in preseason, it was a back to back for a young team, a team with many new players, blah blah blah.
Tonight there was a golden opportunity to try out the lineups in the back court we have all identified for pretty much a whole half. Have we seen Jennings and Pope together? What about Jennings, Stuckey and Datome? (Billups, Stuckey and Datome also, but Billups was never going to play much in this one after that start).
And sure KCP had some rookie moments, but those were less hurtful than some of Bynum's plays in this game and other games past. KCP's good moments and energy outweighed his bad and he is the perfect fit at SG for this roster. If Mo does not recognise this (or he does and sticks stubbornly to his vets>rooks) and Bynum ends up with more minutes in the next two games, I am off the Mo train.
You're going to have games like that. GS isn't 30 points better than the Pistons.
Some of the problems they had last night might persist for a while.
Drummond can be beaten with one simple pass. Once Drummond commits, he simply isn't aware enough to recover after the pass. He often finds himself beaten because he simply turns his back on the ball too often. He also commits to help WAY too early. His P&R defense fluctuates between brilliant and gawd aweful. You never know which you'll get. Monroe is no better. Smith does get run off screens, but you expect that from oversized SFs. Lebron and Melo do the same thing. You have to expect your other bigs to have his back. What's inexcusable are the times when he simply refuses to close out. All three bigs are very good on the ball defenders, but nobody seems to be on the same page defensively.
Jennings is simply a lazy gambler. Period. He gets smacked around by screens because he's tiny. Seriously, dude. Get in the gym. I have bigger muscles than you.
This team needs to more time to gel offensively. They also need to be less selfish. Jennings, Smith, Bynum, and Stuckey are all just looking for their own shot. Last night, GS had 18 assists on their first 21 baskets. We were 100% one on one. Predictable results.
Defensively, this team needs to play harder. They also need to be more aware of where their teammates are trying to take their guys, and the on the ball guys need to be aware of where their help is. Last night they just looked lazy and confused defensively. I literally watched perimeter defenders walk away from their men, thinking other guys had them. I repeatedly watched big men walk with their guys away from the basket, leaving a wide open lane to the hoop. It looked like they had never been coached before.
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