Flip and #54, over or under?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Big C, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. Big C

    Big C First Round Draft Pick

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    LB won 54 games in each of his regular seasons here. Will Flip go over or under 54 wins in his first season? Pistons should be stronger with a more prodeuctive bench, but the conference as a whole will be stronger. I think he goes over with 57 wins this year.
     
  2. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

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    Hard to tell

    If the Pistons get off to a good start, we're looking at a 60 win season. The possibility of a potent offense and decent defense early in the season is a high possibility, even if it scares me.

    I fear that CB, Sheed & RIP are suceptable to abandoning the tenatious defense that has been the backbone of our team, for the more exciting offensive game that they really love. Ben & Tay will resist that temptation, but offensively, the big 3 will dictate tempo.

    The danger is that Sheed will drift further out on the perimeter, CB will revert back to taking more 3's, and RIP's turnovers getting uglier. The only good news there is that it will open up the middle for players like Ben, Tay, and Darko, should he decide to play down low.

    I have mixed emotions on this, because part of it is a natural progression for Sheed. He is most effective when playing with a strong low post player, hopefully Darko, but who is Darko? We won't know until about mid season, and I'm uncomfortable depending on Ben to be our best low post player.

    Ok, I'm beginning to ramble and stray, but the bottom line is that I think we are capable of winning more games, but will it come at the price of defense at the level of the early Carlisle years? I think we have room to play less defense with a corresponding increase in offense, but it's a tricky balance.
     
  3. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    doesn't matter

    LB did everything to have a good record- decided to overplay the starters in games against weak teams, just because he was afraid of a loss that would have made his record worse. He could have played the bench more at least when we were locked at the #2 spot but he didn't even do that until the last 2 games.
     
  4. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

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    True, but the starters got off to a horrible start, and our record was terrible the first quarter of the season, before we turned it on. Even so, I think he should have played the bench a lot earlier, but there were mitigating factors.

    First, Delfino went down, and he was the key bench player expected to get significant minutes at SF and SG. Then Arroyo came later in the season, but LB didn't use him effectively, and he actually got worse off the bench as the season wore on. It' s wierd how he fit in so well when he first got here, and then looked more and more out of place later on.
     
  5. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    Arroyo

    My problem with LB's handling of Arroyo is that LB feels he must break down every player (especially PG's) and start from scratch. Arroyo came here as a good player. He wasn't a rookie and he DIDN"T NEED BROKEN DOWN. LB tinkered with a good thing. Arroyo knew how to get into the lane when he got here. He knew how to push tempo, he knew how to run the pick-n-roll. LB tried to re-define Arroyo's game mid-season and he continued to go downhill after his arrival.

    As far as team expectations under Flip. I think 57 wins sounds about right. This Pistons team is HUNGRY to prove that THEY WON, NOT LB. Ben was overworked last year and for large stretches wasn't the same Ben Wallace. He even complained of DEAD LEGS near the end of the regular season. Tay looked exhausted in the Finals. Those two alone needed more rest. I keep hearing that LB went with the starter more so that we could have this great regular season record. If that is true then why did the team only win 54 games? That wasn't enough for HOMECOURT. The starters needed to rest more and then we could have seen the old Ben playing like a madman and the new-and-improved TAY (the one from April and May) that guy that was averaging 18 and 7 going into the playoffs. Not the worn out Tay that was not able to exert himself on both ends in the playoffs.

    This team will go deeper under Flip, that will allow the "hungry" starters to play all out and give us more energy and effort because they won't be "saving themselves" anymore. I think Flip's use of zones and traps will also give the Pistons some new looks on Defense and will surprise a few teams. I'm really excited about this season.

    GO PISTONS !!!!
     
  6. Big C

    Big C First Round Draft Pick

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    Arroya

     
  7. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    The only problem I have with your stance is that if you want to break down a guy and re-build him (a al Billups) then you actually have to give him legit minutes. LB decided to go with Hunter more than Arroyo. He had a good backup PG in Arroyo when he got here. His "teaching" made Arroyo gun-shy and afraid to play the way he used to. LB broke him down and then refused to put him in games to develop. I guess it's the same argument with Darko. If you want to break a guy down to make them better long-term you need to allow that player PT in order for them to put your teaching to use and to be able to develop confidence in their "new-found" game. LB didn't do that.

    With Billups LB had no choice, he had to play CB after breaking him down. With Arroyo, LB broke him down and then nailed him to the bench.
     
  8. Big C

    Big C First Round Draft Pick

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    Jack

    Well he only had a very short time with Carlos , I think we acquired him near the trade deadline. He attempted to allow him to sew up that back up guard position but the guy just made to many mistakes. True you grow with playing time but I guess LB felt like the playoffs wasnt the time to be allowing Carlos to redefine his game so he went with what he trusted in Lindsey. Now im not endorsing what he did but who am I to question a coach that got a ring and came very close to getting two. Im sure if he was still here Carlos would have had every opportunity to prove himself this year.
     
  9. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree

    I think Arroyo was acquired in December, not February.

    But the thing that bugs me about the whole situation is that Arroyo is clearing a better PG than Hunter. Hunter cannot play PG. He never could. He can't pass. He doesn't feed the post, he can't shoot, he can't make "the right decision". For every good play that Hunter made, he made 3 bad. For a team that needed every bit of offense they could get, a solid backup PG would have been good. Hunter wasn't that.

    Arroyo came here as a pretty darn good player. LB started tinkering and took away all confidence that Carlos did have. Arroyo needed the PT to gel and blend with his new teammates. LB just didn't give him ample opportunities throughout the regular season. I loved the Arroyo-Billups backcourt together. We needed to play Arroyo during the regular season to develop him (I agree the Playoffs isn't the time). If we had I think we would have been a much better playoff team. Hunter absolutely killed our offensive momentum when he was in games. I have all of last's years playoffs on tape. Everytime I watch a game and see Hunter in their refusing to pass into the post, instead opting for a bad long jumper, I get so irritated. We needed Arroyo and LB didn't develop him.
     
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Every Flip thread becomes an LB thread. Larry's gone, but people still love to talk about him.

    I say 58-24 under Flip although I believe this team is capable of 62 wins.
     
  11. Big C

    Big C First Round Draft Pick

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    jack

    Jack im going to defer and agree with you that he should have gave him more playing time. And Arroya does run an offense better than Lindsay. But Arroya made lots of mistakes and the coach just trusted Lindsay. Lindsay wasnt as bad as your making him out to be either. Put some of them Heat tapes in and watch Lindsay slow down D Wade and single handily get Pistons back in the game. My thing is didnt Carlos fall out of favor with Sloan also who is one of the better/no nonsense coaches in the league and coached a hall of famer point guard? He was 4th string down there. My point is maybe there is a little something more to Carlos that we dont know about. Its just odd that two Hall of Fame coaches had problems with the guy. But Micro is correct, were getting off the topic. LIke I said they go over, I say 57 wins...
     
  12. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I think we only lost part of LB.... a large part of his legacy will continue thru Chauncey.
    Larry did let his players make their own decisions on the court based on situations.

    I can see Flip and CB having several strategy sessions before the season starts... deciding what options to keep and where things should be tweeked.
    A big part of Chauncey's growth was learning how to be a coach on the floor...
    I don't think Flip will scrap the playbook all together... he's gonna lean heavily on his PG for floor leadership... this will be the next big step in CB's career...
    Will he get on a player who blows an assignment?
    Will he demand accountability ?... This may be the area that Flip needs the most help... as players tend to buy into a fellow player preaching the the best way (no more right way please).
    I'd rather see someone correct a situation right now vs. losing PT later.... almost everyone is teachable... and the team would be wise to keep some of LB's stuff that this quality team is already comfortable with....
    A gradual phasing in of new strategies will ensure more success early on.
    Chauncey is part of our coaching staff now.

    I'm almost sure there will be a mid season trade to bring in a backup SF... as Joe said he's not looking to make a big splash in August & September.
    This makes a lot of sense... the summer is when several teams are competing for the same players.... but before the deadline is the best opportunity to pick a lotto teams pocket... getting more value for less going out in return.
    After the trade the team will really take off... yeah they should reach 54 W's.
     
  13. BigDaddy

    BigDaddy First Round Draft Pick

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    This maybe was exactly why Joe brought in LB to lay down a foundation with the core players knowing that he wouldn't be here to long.I really think that CB will take over this team in the same manner Zeke did, holding the players accountable on the floor.

    Flip although some say was given to much of a chance in Minny with little results in the playoffs and I can't say either way because besides Garnett I didn't follow thier teams.I think he is from the sounds of it the right guy to come in and drive this ship now that a basic philosophy has been laid down with the core of this team.

    Well I say 58-60 win season barring a major injury to a starter.
     
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Flip

    I would tend to agree that there will not be any huge changes.

    Flip likes going inside with the ball just like LB. Flip likes a lot of passing until an open man is found like the Pistons played the past 2 seasons. But I do think we will see more of a quicker offense and looser which will help Arroyo.

    FLip is innovative and quick in adjusting to league rule changes. Which is not always a good thing but can be what the Pistons need in adjusting more on defense and staying out of foul trouble.

    Also Pistons often had trouble against zone defense and Flip was one of the 1st to use it. So perhaps he can help the team play through them better this season.

    I have not followed the Wolves too much beyond their appearances on TNT and ESPN so perhaps someone else can tell us more of what we can expect from Flip.
     
  15. max

    max All-Star

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    Flip 2

    What Merc wrote about will Flip hold players accountable, etc...

    The one rubb I heard on Flip is that he could stand to be a stronger leader.
     
  16. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Max, I was talking about Chauncey stepping up and holding players accountable... but your point is well taken about this being a weakness of Flips.
     
  17. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    we lost so many games against so many BS teams, and we still got 54 wins. This team I think is going to get 63 wins, and they won't lose against crapp teams because they are more determined than ever. I just know that this team is not going to screw up just because Flip's here now even in the playoffs. Seriously maybe 20-25 games in the season we were 4th or 5th place in the East.
     
  18. Big C

    Big C First Round Draft Pick

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    himat

    63 wins would tie the 89 bad boys for best piston season ever, that would be pretty dam impressive considering how tough the conference will be.
     
  19. max

    max All-Star

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    Prediction

    I predict 60 wins - a new Francise record.
     
  20. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    under

    I'm going with the under, 50-53 wins.

    I think the Pistons will take some time to gel under Flip. This is also an even younger and less experienced team (although with more potential) than last year's.

    The East has also gotten a lot stronger.

    Come playoff time, when it really matters, the Pistons will be ready.
     

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