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Fixing the Raptors

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by rdang, Sep 3, 2005.

  1. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Being a Toronto-native, I have to have SOME hometeam love :tape:.

    So what do you guys think of the Raptors and the situation their in? The new GM Rob Babcock is a complete and udder moron IMO but I feel for his situation.

    Players don't want to come to Toronto because it's:

    1. In Canada (which is a lovely place if people only gave it a chance)
    2. Taxes are higher here than in the States.
    3. Not America (where people have lots of pride and would rather play in the States)

    Toronto is a beautiful city with a lot of things to do; however, the common misconception is that its a boring place. It stops lots of high profile players from even wanting to come and stops draftee players from wanting to be drafted (i.e rumour was Gerald Green refused to come to Toronto).

    So that leaves Babcock with little options on who he can draft cause he doesn't want to get players that won't try; but then he'll go and draft players like Rafael Araujo and Charlie Villaneuva 50 spots ahead of what they should be drafted :frusty: .

    Its a lose-lose situation. Basketball is huge here and I'd hate to see it die.

    What would you guys do/have done in Toronto's past to improve it from being a lottery team every year?
     
  2. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Rapts

    Hey whats up Rdang, nice to see you posting. I think one of the problems is the teams franchise value, according to Forbes Magazine (December 2004), their ranked 14th in the league at $297 million.

    In the December 2003 Forbes edition they were worth $217 Million, or 19th overall. So the owners saw their equity increase by $80 million while putting a less than average product on the floor. They have no real financial incentive to improve the team. It's a biz and they're making big bucks by lying shoddy goods on the paying fans.

    Rob Babcock the GM made the worst move in the history of the Raptors when he traded away Carter for Eric and Aaronn Williams. Then the drafting of Villanueva when you already have the promising Bosh made no sense at all. Stretching out Bonners deal really makes you wonder what these guys are up to, unless it's all about "da pick boss da pick".

    Are they tanking the franchise w/l record for the chance at next years #1? They're stockpiling picks which is no secret. They don't stand a chance at making the playoffs, Vegas has them at 8000000 to 1 (okay it's 80-1). They can tank the w/l column and still strike gold if they get the pick and do it all while making money at the turnstiles.

    I think it won't be long for everyones pining for the good old days of Glenn Grunwald. The Rapts payroll this season is an astounding +$53mil. Yet they'll be lucky to post 28 wins. Here's a kicker, next season their payroll drops to 44 mil, but the year after 07/08 know how much they have on the books? 11.4 mil, then 4.9 and 5.2. This franchise is set to load up or get shipped out (if they put it on the market).

    I think you're in the crosshairs of yesterday and tomorrow all at once. Ya gotta keep the faith for another 18 months and then you'll either see a master plan unfold or a franchise unravel. But I think it's the first of the two.
     
  3. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Carter sucks

    I've never been a Raptor's fan, but I've always been a Carter hater. Shipping his apathetic, fragile butt out of town was the best thing they could have done.

    Bring back JYD!!
     
  4. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Carter - don't get me started on him :mad2:.

    But that was what I was used to when it came to Toronto and basketball. Winning and success and that was what Carter gave the franchise for a couple years. Grunfield did a decent job (but he also screwed up a lot too). So when it comes to 'rebuilding a team' like they are, I guess it's just a little shaky for me to have faith in an organization that's drafting players like Villaneuva with Bosh there.

    I guess the money situation is a good thing, if the stats are true then maybe there is hope. But we gotta resign Bosh soon and he's gonna come at a high price (thats if he even wants to stay). I like Bosh because he's a great athlete and a tremendous competitor (I sound like one of the announcers on the Raptors broadcast right now) but I remember seeing a game where the raps were losing and he started tearing up on the bench.

    He hates to lose and he's getting better (they compare him to a young Garnett and I believe it); but by not showing him dedication by putting together a team around him (i.e not drafting someone that already plays his position), it's just gonna push him out and the Raptors can't afford to do that.

    Money has never been an issue because Toronto is hockey central. Picture New York in basketball and thats the type of money Toronto makes (okay I'm overexaggerating a bit). But its definately enough to keep the Raptors in town (same ownership). So by having a profit and still losing its not gonna help the image any better and become more attractive to big free agents and upcoming superstars on the draft.

    I think that if we brought in Dr. J (when Carter wanted him) it would've helped the image of the company drastically. He would've been a positive public image for the city of Toronto and it would've led to good things. They could've had their Rob Babcock (as moronic as he is) being sort of a puppet master if he really wanted to. Just having Dr. J as the messenger of what the franchise wanted in the end.

    It sucks though, because even if Toronto does get #1 draft pick choice next year (which is a REAL possibility with the talent Atlanta has now) I got a feeling they're just gonna blow the draft pick again on another dudd. Like I said, its a lose-lose situation. We get a good draft pick and end up wasting it cause no one wants to come (makes the whole Joe Johnson max out contract make more sense now eh?)
     
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    At the risk of making this thread even more Canuck focused, can anyone stand the Raptors announcers?

    I swear, I would rather have a hornet crawling inside each ear rather than listen to Chuck Swirsky call a game. He's like a fast talking John Madden. Terribly annoying.
     
  6. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That guy is the NBA version of Richard Vitale. Annoying personified.
     
  7. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Hahahaha

    Ahahaha, I guess I should have said Mr. Vitale. His first name is to vulgar to print.

    My last post was edited for content!
     
  8. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Rdang

    I want to be clear that I was referring to Toronto getting ripped off in the Vinsanity deal. They gave the cat away for a song. I think he had to go, I just don't think the club was using any braincells when they sent him to Joisy for peanuts.

    Carter's admission that he was doggin it as a Raptors while his teammates were giving it their all said alot about the guy. Surely there are a ton of players out there that dog it at times. But you don't go public on it. You don't go public right after you got traded, especially when the team trading you just got hosed down like ignorant schoolboys.

    Check this from 1/7/05, "By his own admission, Vince Carter didn't play to his full potential with the Toronto Raptors."

    In a televised interview with TNT NBA analyst John Thompson on Thursday, the New Jersey Nets guard admitted that he did not push himself as hard as he should have in Toronto.

    "In years past, no," he said.

    "I was fortunate to have the talent...you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things. You see that you don't have to work at it. Now, with the all the injuries, I have to work harder; I'm a little hungrier. Getting a fresh start has made me want to attack the basket."

    http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=110409&hubname=nba

    But you know the NBA can't let that ruin all that "Vinsanity" marketing. IN July he'd been re-habbed enough to be presented with the NBA's Community Assist Award. If you're a Raptor fan, that has to fry your eggs!

    "NEW YORK, Aug. 17, 2005 - In recognition of Vince Carter's community outreach efforts and on-going generosity during the Summer of Goodwill, the NBA announced today it will honor the New Jersey Nets forward with the Community Assist Award for July." :mad2:

    http://www.nba.com/news/carter_community_award.html
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Vince Carter is slime. He could want to come to Detroit for free, and I would say "hell no".
     
  10. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Hear ya

    Micro. But you know the NBA has a lot of money and time invested in this guy. And it doesn't hurt that Sterns buddy Rod Thorn ended up with the goods. The east coast was ripe for some "happening ball", the Knicks just weren't gettin it done. It's all about "da green".
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Oh yes, G-man, I know it's about the green. My green. The Green I spend every year for RAPTORS NBATV.

    I'm happy the league made a move to better their East Coast situation. I just don't want to watch a guy turn it on after spending 2 years dismantling the only team that reps my country in the L.

    I'm no Raptors fan, but I do like the idea of Canadian franchises. 2 years ago, Carter walked on water in T.O. He pissed that all way. Now he's the target of the boo-birds. The greatest player, oops I mean traitor, in franchise history.
     
  12. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Hey, it made you forget about Zeke, right?

    I found this letter to the Raptors fans from your very own Pete Babcock. It's basically a "State of the Union" address. Maybe it'll make you feel just a wee bit better..

    "Dear Fans,

    As we wrap up a busy offseason for the Raptors, I thought I'd take a moment to
    touch base with you and the rest of the Raptors Insiders and let you know how
    things went this summer from my perspective.

    We had a promising summer league season, playing in both Los Angeles and
    Minnesota. Though our two first round picks, Charlie Villanueva and Joey Graham
    suffered minor injuries, they both showed great skills and potential.


    They are rookies and will go through the development curve, but they bring great
    potential to our club and they are both outstanding young men. The coaches had
    our summer players playing defence and team basketball. The guys were fun to
    watch perform and more fun to be around.

    Both Chris Bosh and Loren Woods joined the team in LA and you could feel the
    passion growing with this young team. The young Raptors, led by Bosh, are ready
    to step up and be counted.

    A few weeks ago, we gave an offer sheet to Chris Duhon of the Chicago Bulls.
    Chris was a restricted free agent, which meant the Bulls had seven days to match
    the offer or let him go. We felt that there was an outside chance that they
    would not match because they still had to re-sign Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry and
    Jannero Pargo and there were several "amnesty players" available.

    The Bulls did match our offer, but we were able to move on and re-sign Matt
    Bonner. Matt has been a priority since the start and it was tough to make the
    choice of Duhon over Matt, but we knew that whichever way it went, we were going
    to have a good young player for our team. Matt represents the type of character
    that we are building around for our future.

    Pape Sow, who we re-signed earlier, and Jose Calderon who we signed from Spain
    are two more young players that represent all the good things you want from a
    player in team athletics.

    We may have some growing pains, but we are all very excited about the quality of
    talent and character of these young players.

    A lot of people ask me what keeps us busy in August and September. When I first
    joined the league, these two months were our down time. Now there is really no
    such thing as down time in the NBA. This summer has been especially busy with
    the pushed back times, due to the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, and the
    addition of "amnesty players". I've mentioned this twice so far, so I should
    explain what an "amnesty player" is.

    The league initiated this "one time" rule for the new CBA. A team could waive a
    player and have his salary come off of the "luxury tax" computation. The team
    would still pay his salary, but would not have to pay tax on that salary. If a
    team is over the "luxury tax", the tax is at least one dollar per dollar over
    the tax line. If a team was $20 million over the cap and waived a player making
    $10 million a year for three more years, then the team could save at least $30
    million in taxes.

    This is just a one-time deal, but it added 18 more players to the free agent
    market that were unexpected. This has caused a ripple effect and pushed back
    signings by about two weeks and made this time of year even busier.

    I am currently in Minnesota and yesterday was a typical "down time" day.

    I talked with five teams about potential trades (I stress potential), I talked
    with eight agents who have players that are interested in being our "third point
    guard", I talked with Steve Fruitman (Director of Basketball Finance) at least
    five times about player contracts. I talked with Jacquie Allinson (my
    administrative assistant) about work permits and a community project. I talked
    with Jim LaBumbard (Director of Media Relations) about some interview requests,
    I talked with Scott Howard (Director of International Player Personnel) who is
    scouting in the Dominican Republic, I talked with my brother Pete (Director of
    NBA Personnel) about free agent point guards (and about that album of mine he
    has had since 1968!!). I talked with Sam Mitchell about training camp and point
    guards, and with Wayne Embry (Advisor to the President) about point guards.

    That was my "vacation day". Our coaches and trainers are traveling a few days a
    week to work out players and scouts are watching tape on free agents and draft
    prospects for next year.

    None of us would think of complaining because this is basketball and we love it.
    This is our life and it is one of those careers that isn't a job, it's part of
    you and part of your family. Like all jobs, it can be tiring, stressful and
    frustrating at times, but we have a great staff and they all believe in our
    philosophy - play hard, play team ball, support each other both on and off the
    court, get involved with the community, and do things the right way.

    At some point every team goes through its share of losing and tough times, but
    we are committed to this team and doing things the right way. When you are
    surrounded by good people who believe in a common cause and work together, good
    things are going to happen. It will take time, but it will happen.

    I look forward to seeing you at games and being a part of the development of
    this team. "


    Thank you "Wild Bill" Babcock

    (Okay I added the Wild Bill part) :eyebrows:
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Doesn't really make me feel better. I know Rob's a good guy and he's working hard.

    It's an argument I get into with Stones fans regularly. There are 30 teams working to be #1. It's a special time when you can float around the top 5 for consecutive years. Many franchises never get that close despite best intentions and great efforts.
     
  14. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    I can't stand the announcers. And when they do comparisons with hockey to what happens in the basketball games it drives me nuts. It's like watching an american broadcaster talk about baseball in a hockey game.
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    [SIZE=+2]We've got no chance

    [/SIZE]Babcock: Raps won't be good
    By STEVE BUFFERY -- Toronto Sun

    [​IMG]
    Toronto GM Rob Babcock sees plenty of struggles this season for the Raptors.
    (Toronto Sun File Photo/David Lucas)

    Raptors fans may be shocked to learn that Rob Babcock does not see his team improving this season.

    At least in terms of its won-loss record.

    In a frank and rather stunning assessment, the Raptors general manager told the Toronto Sun yesterday he does not expect his club to improve on its 33-49 record from last season, given the influx of young players on the roster.

    If that turns out to be the case, it's likely the club will miss the playoffs for the fourth consecutive season and Raptors fans will no doubt be howling for Babcock's head on a platter.

    But the second-year GM wasn't about to sugar-coat his thoughts on this year's squad, which will gather on Oct. 4 at Brock University in St. Catharines for training camp.

    "There will be growing pains, no doubt about it," Babcock said. "Whether we win or lose more games than last year, I think if you look at us on paper, we probably will not win as many games as last year.

    "We more or less have the same team back with the exception of Donyell Marshall, who was an integral part of our team last year. We're replacing him with rookies."

    Marshall, who averaged 11.5 points and 6.6 rebounds off the bench last season, became a free agent and signed a four-year deal with the Cleveland Cavaliers. The Raptors hope that first-round draft picks Charlie Villanueva and Joey Graham will pick up the slack, but Babcock understands that it will take time for the rookies to establish themselves as solid NBA players.

    "We still have a long way to go, but we have the guys here now who see what the plan is, and they understand it," Babcock said. "They realize that there's no cutting corners, that it's going to be a lot of hard work, learning to play as a team, doing things the right way ... Our guys are starting to get that and things are turning around."

    Babcock is optimistic that his rookies, Villanueva and Graham, together with young standouts Chris Bosh, Matt Bonner and Pape Sow, eventually will merge to become a championship-calibre team. In the meantime, his most important job with training camp less than a month away is to find a competent point guard to back up Rafer Alston and NBA rookie Jose Calderon -- either via free agency or a trade. Babcock said that he is talking with several teams about a possible trade. He waved aside rumours of a possible trade with Minnesota involving veteran Jalen Rose.
     
  16. Zoso

    Zoso First Round Draft Pick

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    Wow. That is surprising, and quite funny, that he came out and said it in public like that. But the man was just speaking the truth. They're not going to be any better then they were last year. Heck, with so many teams loading up in the off season, in the East alone, the Raps probably won't reach their win total from last year.

    Man, Jalen must be chompin' at the bit to get out of there. It really is a shame that they didn't release him. He would've looked sooo good coming off our bench. :ohwell:
     
  17. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    I respect him for that. At least now we know that whatever he says will be 100% non-bull%%%% from now on. I used to think he'd sugarcoat everything; but now, I can take what he says at reliable.

    Maybe he is doing his job. Its the truth? The Raptors can't expect to dramatically get better all of a sudden. They don't have Don Juan abilities in attracting new clients. They're stuck the way they are until another rookie decides to come and save the organization (Carter, or example of Lebron in Cleveland).

    I think maybe they even gave up on Bosh. Picture drafting Villaneuva as kinda like a media symbol that they don't think Bosh can live up to the hype, the kid's good (and I believe so) but maybe they've given up. Everything Babcock does has another meaning to it...all metaphorical and stuff..
     
  18. DirtyMoney

    DirtyMoney First Round Draft Pick

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    What about Mourning. I used to have respect for this guy until he didn't show up for any Toironto games.
     
  19. ovee99

    ovee99 Second Round Draft Pick

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    When I become a Free Agent,

    I want to sign with the Raptors!

    Well, I don't really. It's sad that Toronto is not a hot spot destination for players. Financially for the owners it's great. I not to offend the fans, but the NBA needs to played in the Continental US. I don't understand why there is a franchise in a place like Toronto, Ontario Canada, but not in say, St Louis or Las Vegas. It really makes no sense.

    If we had a team in every major city, then it might be a different story. Let's work on our own economy. Move Toronto to St Louis and while you're at it David Stern, move the Clippers to Las Vegas. We don't need to teams in one city playing in the same arena...:mad2: :usa:
     
  20. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    He's since backed off his we're gonna suck comments. Guess what Rob, its still true.
     

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