Expendable?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by MotownPride, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    you are right this is all speculation. yes we won't be able to fill the void left by ben through free agency. most likely if joe feels he can't sign ben he'll trade him. but i really don't think we need to bring in a center through free agency. we have plenty of players capable of playing that spot better than anything we could get in free agency.
    dice isn't young. but dice is under contract for a fair amount of money. offense isn't easy to learn. ben has worked on it i'll give him that but that doesn't mean it's been successful. ben will never be the offensive player mcdyess was or is.

    those centers getting paid like that are just dumb gms. there is a premium on height and gms will pay for it. most of those guys got big pay days just because of height alone. the pistons don't overpay anybody. it won't happen.

    i agree somewhat. i wouldn't call him an offensive force. but he does provide things on the offensive end. but his man singlehandedly stopped tays post up in the miami and the san antonio series. bens man would double and tay had no offensive option to pass it to make them pay. it does make a difference.

    i would say chauncey is the driver. but rip is the engine. as rip goes the offense goes. i say rip is the engine because we are going to rip everytime. now someone else might get open because of the way the other team reacts to rip. but in general rip is the most likely piston to put up the shot.

    i would give the biggest deal to tay. cause he's the youngest and hasn't scratched the surface of his potential. can you give me an example of a cheap sg out there that's equivalent to rip?? besides wade and lebron?
     
  2. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    That's more work than I'd like to do right now. But we got Rip at a fairly cheap price becaues he wasn't as valued when we first got him. He didn't do well in Washington because of their system and how Jordan never liked him.

    Players just need confidence, playing time and motivation to become great players. If you're in the NBA you either have lots of talent, are really athletic, or (in rare cases) both. Rip's position IS easy, lots of players go drafted low who are amazing shooters. Look at Salim Stoudamire...he went SECOND round and now he's stuck on Atlanta because of the competition and talent thats ahead of him and he was amazing in college.

    And trust me, offense IS easy to learn. Look at Tim Duncan. He started playing basketball for the first time in college. If Ben found someone to teach and trained consistently, he'd improve easier than learning the concepts of defence from scratch.

    His shooting stroke isn't that bad.
     
  3. bricalz

    bricalz First Round Draft Pick

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    Expendable

    Oh, Ben's stroke is bad. But no one ever said that it couldn't be improved.

    Offense is easy to learn? I don't know, you don't go around force-feeding something to someone, they'd just spit it out. Ben wants to improve and that's the key. And he will continue working on his offense.

    I agree, it is hard to find someone like Rip.

    I am holding out hope that Ben will not ask for too much. He will ask for what his worth. :nod:
     
  4. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    How is Ben's stroke that bad? His elbow is bent, he flicks his wrist, he bends his knees, and hes usually square to the basket. I forgot who it was but I remember even an announcer was talking about how his stroke really isn't that bad. It might've been after Ben hit his only 3 last season.

    But if everyone keeps telling him how horrible he is on offense, he'll never grow the confidence he needs to improve. Want proof? Look at Darko.
     
  5. vthomp

    vthomp First Round Draft Pick

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    Most exppendable

    If we are talking about the starting five than I would say Rip, in this league you have alot of great 2 guards if you can replace him with great defense than you will be okay. the 5 is balance well coached and is in the prime. Ben, Sheed, CB, Tay you have to keep.:mad:
     
  6. bricalz

    bricalz First Round Draft Pick

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    Ben

    Hehe, I'm not knocking on Ben man. OK OK, maybe his stroke isn't that bad, but the way he misses makes it look that way. And I never said that he should give it up and that he is a casualty on offense. He is an offensive force for us, no mistake, and I said he constantly works on his game from all aspects. :eyebrows:
     
  7. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

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    bens poor shooting

    I personally think it’s a confidence thing. If any of you have been to a game and watched warm ups Ben is usually one of the first ones out there. He makes some free throws and does some stuff in the post and to wrap it up before he walks off the court he knocks down A DEEP 3. So Ben can shoot. He has even made teams pay a few times for leaving him open.
    Have you ever gone to a court seen a guy just out there knocking down a couple nice shots and then you play him and he can’t hit anything? Or the other way around a guy is out and just puttin up brick after brick but you put a hand in his face and its lights out?
    I don’t know if Ben just needs to relax and let it come to him or push the issue. Maybe his muscles are just too damn big and he second guesses how hard to shoot. Whatever it is you can tell he does not feel 100% natural when he is on the offensive end.
    The shooting aside I would just like to state that Ben is the heart and soul of the pistons and as long as he can pull down 15 16 boards a game I will not feel bad if he misses some 10 footers.
     
  8. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    when was the last time ben pulled down 15 16 boards?? few and far between nowadays. but nowhere near close to doing it per game. the fact is our other bigs are now good enough rebounders that we won't get killed on the boards if ben is gone. i just don't know about the heart and soul thing anymore. his heart and soul weren't into games 1 and 2 in san antonio. but maybe last year ben just went through a lot and his head was on other things besides basketball.
     
  9. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    Micro, pass that stuff you've been smokin...

    LMAO, LOL.... You've got to be kidding Micro, SERIOUSLY!!! Nothing wrong with giving Rip his very much due props but just out right telling falsehoods about the guy is way overboard! I do indeed recognize that the kid has improved his D since becoming a Piston but he is FAR FAR away from being one of the best defenders at the 2. Rip does OK defending guys a bit smaller but quick guys like a.i. and that's about it, he does NOT do anything special defensively... Let's just keep it real folks! Although ALL of our starters are sort of indespensable I'm inclined to agree with Motownpride on this one, there are indeed a large amount of talented SG's and swingmen that can be acquired in today's NBA.

    Not to mention that even thinking that DMC can come in and give us something close to what Sheed gives is EXTREME wishful thinking to say the least....
     
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    15+
    * 4 times in last year's playoffs.
    * 18 times during the season.

    14+ (14 is his magic #)
    * 6 times in the playoffs
    * 28 times during the season

    Ben's lower rebound totals are probably more a reflection of the issues I mentioned earlier this season, and the increased rebounding provided from Dice, Tayshaun and Sheed.

    Remember, that year he had monster rebounds, we only won 50 games and Ben was asked to play 40 MPG. Everyone else deferred rebounding to Ben and he accounted for more than 1/3rd of our RPG.

    In 2003 we did not win the battle of the boards every night. We had 3328 total rebounds. In 2004, 3506. In 2005, 3561.

    2003 - 25th in the league in total rebounds despite Ben's 15+ per game.
    2004 - 11th in the league in total rebounds
    2005 - 4th in the league in total rebounds
     
  11. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    Say What?

    You sir are simply dead wrong and FULL of it!!!!! Everyone knows who showed up in the Finals and who didn't my friend, it's not rocket science! Those players were Chauncey, Big Ben, and Dyess, the guys who balked on us were Sheed, Rip, and Tay plain & simple. If you can't tell that Ben is STILL the heart & soul of this squad you are frankly blind as a bat pal, seriously. I mean really who did show up in those first couple of games in sa?? When the entire nation counted Detroit out and were calling for the Pistons to be swept who was that guy who stole the ball on the first play for a monstrous awe inspiring dunk to set the tone immediately and restore some Pistons pride.... That's right buddy, good ole #3 to the rescue. Bottom line when it's all said and done Ben's jersey number will likely hang from the rafters alongside the rest of the Pistons greats!

    Oh yeah being the #2 rebounder in the league is nothing to sneeze at my friend. You never miss what you had until it's gone, and we all saw how badly our squad underachieved when Ben was gone on suspension and from death in his family... They're just NOT the same without him.
     
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ty, you silly man. Name 5 starting guards who are better at the 2 as defenders than Rip. Then go back and tell me which one puts up better offensive #s. You might come up with Larry Hughes, but he was cheating passing lanes in the Washington zone D. He's not a tremendous man defender.

    Point in case. Rip did a very good job on both Wade and Ginobili last playoffs when Tayshaun was struggling.

    Or perimeter D on Reggie in the 2nd round. Rip kept Reggie from nailing 3s off of screens and also stayed disciplined with fouls limiting Uncle Reg to less than 3 FTs per game (where he was deadly shooting 0.941 in the playoffs).
     
  13. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    you sir are wrong about ben coming to the rescue in game 3. all that happened in game 3 is he finally showed up. chauncey and mcdyess were already balling. i didn't say ben didn't show up for the last 5 games. but he definitely didn't show up for the first 2. i don't feel comfy calling him the heart and soul of the pistons if you don't show up for the first 2 games of the nba finals.

    i also didn't say ben wasn't a good rebounder. i just said he's not grabbing 15 or 16 boards a game. the pistons didn't play well without ben under larry brown. that does not mean that will be the case with a new coach. those were also regular season games when the pistons took quite a few nights off.

    i too would like ben to retire as a piston. but that's only if he wants to retire with a decent pay rate. if ben demands big money i think he's the most expendable. the rest of the pistons starting 5 are bargains except sheed who is probably getting a little bit less than market value but is still making quite a bit of money. when we are talking most expendable you can't leave the money situation out of the equation. ben is valuable but you just can't put max contract type money into a player that is as one dimensional as he is.
     
  14. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Excellent post Ty,
    Theres a direct correlation between Darko's biggest supporters being Ben's biggest detractor (maybe Dave is an exception).... he is viewed as getting in the way of DMC's PT.
    Truth is Ben puts up good numbers... just doesn't look good doing it.
    He doesn't have that sweet stroke... or that goto post move...
    but he gets the same job done by beating his man with quickness and strength...which more skilled players can't match.
    Just like you said... bottom line is he does show up in the big games better than most of his teammates... especially when you consider the studs he's matched up against.
    I'm not giving up hope on his FT shooting improving... then we'll be looking at a consistent 15/10 man with tremendous intangibles and defense
    Ben should be the least of our concerns.
     
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    yes. i'm a darko supporter but i think i answered the question posed at the start of the thread. if you would read any of my posts i always mention that i want ben to stay as a piston for the rest of his career. the question at the start of the thread was who out of the starting 5 is most expendable. ben's combination of contract, age, undersized big man, injuries and lack of offensive game makes him the most expendable. like it or not darko is the future and we have a glut of big men to step in and do what ben does by committee.

    i'm also a big carlos delfino supporter. he's one of my favorite pistons. but i'm not pushing for rip to get moved. i think my post have been very unbiased and i back my opinions up. rip had a bad finals series and not the best of playoffs but now everyone points to him as the most expendable. when he's under contract for a bargain he's still improving offensively and defensively. oh yeah. rip was matched up against quite a few great players himself.

    in fact very few of you have mentioned the money issue. the question was not if we had endless amounts of cash which piston would you keep.
     
  16. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

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    Expendable

    Given our balanced, no star approach to roster building what makes any one starter "more" expendable. They all are at or very near all star status and provide a specific service that could only be fulfilled by relatively few others in the association. Is it concievable they are equally important, by design. The loss is twenty percent, be it a reduction in defense, rebounding, assists, or scoring. Pick your poison.
     
  17. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    Nice save micro

    Come on guy you know there's a HUGE difference between one being one of the best defenders at his position as you originally alleged... To now switching it to one of the best "starting" defenders at his position. Next time you'd be better to clarify yourself from the beginning ole buddy...

    By the way to my recollection Tayshaun & Lindsey were the ones who did the bulk of defending wade & ginobli, please stop giving Richard defensive accolades he just clearly has not earned! Not to mention although we did ok on wade (I guess), the way ginobli shredded through the lane with ease while shooting a lofty FG% I'd say NOBODY did a very good job on him, seriously. Now the lockdown that bowen put on rip last june, that was something worthy of being deemed "a very good job"!
     

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