Expendable?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by MotownPride, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ben hasn't had bone spurs before last year unless you go back to Orlando.

    I don't buy that legislating against defense. The rules eliminated the hand checking but blocks, position and hustle are all still legal AFAIK.

    The reason why the league is so low scoring is the over abundance of 3 point baskets and zone defenses. If the league wanted to increase scoring, they would do away with the zone and force teams to play man-to-man. By playing zone, they are just encouraging the 3 which is why you don't see the same box scores the league had 20 years ago.

    Anyway, I don't think the NBA legislated against Ben. They legislated against Lindsey.
  2. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

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    expendable/zones

    As far as expendable I would say it is rip. My problem is turnovers he gets caught in the air making bad passes and just throws the ball away leading to fast breaks.



    I could be wrong but I seem to remember an interview with stu jackson (VP of NBA basketball) in Sports Illustrated saying that the reasoning behind putting in zone defenses was to increase scoring by allowing the 3. I guess it kinda falls under the talent level drop off conspiracy or whatever if the players could do the "FUNDEMENTALS” like shoot, pass, rebound box out ect. Then the game would be just fine.

    I think it would be a shame to get rid of the 3 it can change the whole complexion of a game if a guy gets hot. If you are a "basketball purest" like the 40s 50s kind of guys well the game has changed get over it. Can you imagine an NBA without dunking or a 3 heck no im rambling now but the game changes players make adjustments and the game goes on.
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Zone defences do not increase scoring. You only have to watch an NCAA game to see the effect of a zone. The NBA tinkers for no good reason whatsoever in an attempt to make the game "better". All zone does is eliminate individual matchups and force teams to hit their outside shots.

    With a serious shortage of "pure shooters" and the move away from big men with post skills, scoring has plummeted.

    I just read an article (I cannot find) on the impact of the 3 ball. Yeah, I can imagine a game where there are not a lot or any 3 pointers. Players would be going to the hoop and earning their points at the line.

    http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/hwc_pointsfrenzy.html

    Notice the made 3s? 3 in total. 2 by Denver, 1 by Detroit. In a triple overtime game. 186-184. Who wouldn't want to watch a game like that? It was amazing...
  4. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Ben Wallace

    There is no way that Ben is the most expendable for so many reasons.

    Not the least of which is the fact that a large majority of Pistons fans would revolt. That fact in and of itself is good enough reason why Ben is a Piston for life.
  5. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Oh man, I don't even know where to begin.

    I'll start with Ben's worth. Ben brings the foundation for the team that set the Pistons apart from the rest: defense first. He's the symbol of what Piston DNA is: he's a hard-working, defensively aggessive player with a chip on his shoulder. He lets his game speak for itself (how many times have people talked about him negatively and he only reply with a "We'll settle it on the court" attitude?)

    He may not be a very vocal leader; but Ben is a leader that leads by example. Without his body around the net the Pistons would definatley have a bigger problem with guys like Ginobili always driving to the rack. Ben keeps people out.

    How many good centers are there really in the league? Shaq says the only pure centers left are him and Amare. How many good guards are out there? TONS. Many of them just need a chance, to explode and be a great player. Centers get all the time in the world to develop, look at Darko, they expect him to start getting better in two more years, whereas Lebron/Wade had to make instant impacts. Look at Bosh too, who's still developing.

    The Pistons can replace Ben, but whoever they bring in will not offer the great magnitude of defense/image that Ben offers the Pistons. People fear being blocked by Ben because it can and will happen.

    His offense? Lacking, yes, but a good offense in my opinion is a lot easier to learn/find than good defense. And defense wins games. Rapidly declining? He still looks like the Beast to me. This is his contract year; he'll be bringing his A game all year round.

    Now my random rant for everything bball jay said:

    *breathes in*

    Dice is a great player but his repetoire is a baseline jumper and a fadeaway. EC's the only guy that can really consistently guard Shaq the way he does. Ben probably won't ask for a max contract at his age. Free throws are easy to improve on and teams can win with bad free throw shooters (San Antonio is an example). Adapting to a 'new league' with 'offense-minded people' destroys all concepts of all that is Detroit City basketball - they might as well be Phoneix then (but then again even Dallas is starting to be more defense based?). Injuries to any of our 5 players will cause big problems: Ben relies on athleticism, but with his hard work and determination - can't you just as easily say he'll come back like Dice did?

    *breathes out*

    Oh - and Darko's not ready to be in the starting lineup.
  6. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    Someone in another forum posted an article early in the offseason that mentioned Ben was sitting out his hometown charity game because of a recent foot surgery. Whether it mentioned bone spurs or not, I can't recall.
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Some good and some bad

    No way a zone increases offense in today's league. The Zone does encourage passing though..which I believe was the goal. They were trying to get away from the one on one game where one player would hold the ball for the entire shot clock without getting others involved. The negative effect of this is that this takes away from the athletic brilliance of the game. Personally, I don't think it should be eliminated though. I think players just need to learn how to shoot. If a team makes shots then the opposing team will have to drop the zone eventually. If a team wants a more wide open game they need to play more aggressive defense. UNLV and Arkansas had no problems scoring against the zone in college. It's possible.

    The reality is that the previous one on one style of the NBA combined with the tendency for most NBA hopefuls to develop their 360 dunk versus their jumpshot had gradually made for some ugly basketball. The average player back in the 80's, early 90's had a much more complete game. Just look at the field goal percentages of the NBA scoring leaders. I still have hope for the NBA that the scoring will return, it will just take sometime for this league to rebound from a decade of declining ball movement and outside shooting in the pro game.
  8. bricalz

    bricalz First Round Draft Pick

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    Expendable

    Ben is not expendable. Or I don't want him to be.

    He is nearing the end of a career nobody thought he would have, undrafted as he was. I say keep him here because no matter what happens, he will still personify our Pistons. Heart. Grit. Soul. Every byline out there, Ben can have it.

    Keep him here and let him retire as Piston as he should be.

    I think that, regrettably, the most expendable is Rip, though his mid-range game is incomparable to anybody in the league right now. We need Tay's defense out on the other teams premier players and Chauncey's leadership and Sheed's complimenting Ben. So among the 5, sadly, Rip is the most expendable.

    Fortunately, I don't think we have that problem of dealing him away though. I'd only give him up for a handful of players. If the Cavs offer Lebron, or the Heat offer Wade, hmmm............. :eyebrows:
  9. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Ben

    If Lebron or Wade were offered for Ben, I'd steal Lee's autographed Rodney White Piston's jersey and include that in the deal!

    Yeah, I guess I could live with Ben and an autographed RW jersey for King James or D Wade!
  10. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    mcdyess is a good player and both that baseline jumper and fadeaway are deadly. we also saw him start bringing out more moves as the playoffs went along. he can do more things he just did what works. that's like saying all kareem could do was sky hook. also mcdyess did not easily come back from a knee injury. it took him years and years to do it. mcdyess also has that killer baseline jumper and fadeaway to compensate for his knee and lack of explosiveness compared to his pre injury play.

    if ben was asking for 8 mil the deal would be done by now. free throws aren't that easy to improve on as you think. look at shaq who has just as much practice as anyone in the league and he hasn't improved much. for ben free throws are probably mental but he still misses them. yes we can win with a bad free throw shooter. but darko will be an around 80 % free throw shooter. we could put a lineup on the floor that nobody could foul.

    adaptation does not mean changing your game completely. san antonio has the game to play both ways. they can grind it out defensively and they can put lots of points on the board. yes we are a defensive team first but watch this year when we go hard on offense too. it will make us almost unstoppable. you can play both sides at a high level. ben is the one player that can't do that. he only plays defense at a high level.

    oh. i never put darko in the starting lineup. i just said he was ready for a bench role backing up mcdyess and sheed. but i don't think you really know that darko isn't ready for a starting job. what information are you getting this viewpoint from. he did well as a starter for us. he does well in all meaningful minutes as a piston and as a member of his national team.

    for everyone
    rip is not expendable. sorry but rip is the engine that makes our offense go. we won the championship with an offense ran through rip. we didn't win last year because san antonio was the one team that was able to stop rip. i guess i'm the only one that was excited about triple double rip at the end of the season. he starts taking care of the ball more and this will become a reality. rip is also our best defender in the starting 5 against quick driving players. iverson,wade, ginobli. rip will continue to improve he's also under contract at a bargain price. to replace rip we'll be having to pay some major money to whoever we sign in his place. to replace ben we can look to our own bench.
  11. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Sorry..

    Just finding it hard to believe that we have anybody including Dyess that can replace what the current defensive player of the year gives you. The quarterback of the defense is not expendable. Especially when that is the team's staple. I know you speak of some situations where you've seen the team continue to play well without Ben's presence. I don't see it...nor have I seen it. I don't recall of any situation where the absence of Ben for the entire game has yielded positive results for our boys.

    You honestly think Darko and Dyess can match the intensity, heart, and athleticism Ben gives you on "D" that seperates us from the rest of the league? I don't see it. I think the offensive drop off and lowered free throw accuracy are nothing compared to the rare defensive presence Ben gives you when he's in the game. It is also important to mention that Ben's offensive deficiencies are magnified during half-court sets. When we are playing aggresive trapping defense he is less of a liability because he's pretty descent in a wide open game.

    My last thought and I think I am starting to reach the point where I know it is impossible to get you to sway your opinion:deadhorse ....is that I believe that there are some players in the league that just make their other teammates better. Without Michael Jordan I don't think you speak about the Bulls teams as being so dominant defensively. Mike set the tone..the team followed. I feel confident in my gut that if you take Ben out of our system the commitment to defense will leave with him because offensive greatness is much more attractive in today's league. We've seen a glimpse of that at the beginning of last season where our boys were giving up points left and right during Ben's absence. That's not a trend I'd like to see for an entire season.
  12. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    we didn't play well defensively under larry brown. that does not mean we won't play well defensively under flip without ben wallace. in those early games you have to remember we were still trying to get used to the new rules of the league on handchecking. ben isn't the only piston that likes to play defense. joe drafted and traded for players that play both defense and offense.

    no. i don't think darko and dice can match the intensity, heart and athleticism ben gives on D. i never said they could i just said the defensive dropoff isn't as significant as people think. in a few years there will be a point where bens defense is just not enough to keep him on the court when you could have a player that does less defensively but much much more offensively. i'm not advocating trading ben but the point of the thread was out of the starting 5 which one is expendable. the easy answer for me is ben. he isn't under contract for a reason. you have to think of price vs. performance at some point. he is getting old and that age issue is magnified by the fact he relies on athleticism. i just don't want to see us sign ben for big money and it haunt us for years. what's a ben wallace that can't jump anymore. useless.
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    very fortunate

    What all this really means...

    This entire thread and this debate really speaks to how indespensable all of our players are. The reality is that you can build an arguement for keeping every single player on the team versus another. For me, I can't see a Pistons team without Ben Wallace..but I can see the other arguements as well.

    We truely have something special here in Detroit...many props to Joey D. for assembling such a well-balanced squad!
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    now that is something we agree on. this team is truely well balanced and well built. i hope we stay together for a couple more years and a couple more ships. joe has built us with the right combination of vets and youth we will not go through a rebuilding process like other teams. we will keep rolling.

    you are right. ben wallace is the face of the pistons right now. but before him there were many other players that held that title. there will be someone after him to hold it. i'm betting on darko the kid has star power. with playing time and confidence his personlity is going to come out. i can just imagine the first time darko makes a big block and flexes the crowd will go wild.
  15. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    the crowd goes wilddddddddd!

    If that does become the case...I will be definitely one of the folks going crazy! :) Darko as the face of the Pistons...wouldn't that be ironic.
  16. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Big Ben and The Prince

    Ben is most most "ex spendable" for the simple reason

    that if the Pistons don't "Spend" on Big Ben this coming year he will most certainly be an "Ex" Piston. That makes Big Ben the most "Ex" "Spendable" Piston. Hopefully not.

    As far as the Prince goes. He needs to "Expand" his muscle mass and I believe he has the greatest potential of the starting 5 to "Expand" his muscle mass. That makes The Prince very "Expandable"
  17. puertoricanballer

    puertoricanballer First Round Draft Pick

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    Good points

    lol. If Ben become "Ex spendable" that will allow Darko to "Expand" his time on the floor :eyebrows: making his "spendable" time on the pine a thing of the past.
  18. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    It took him years, sure and he's jumped around on a lot of teams too in the transition. To say that Ben's one knee injury away from being rendered useless is neglecting his hardwork. Dice compensated, and Ben will too in some way (even if that means teaching the young Darko).

    Yes we can put anyone in the lineup that no one could foul, that's callde the freethrow line and that's up to the coach to decide. Its like when the game's on the line and come down to freethrows with Shaq in Miami, a good coach would pull him out. There was a series a few years ago (I think the last time SA won) where they fouled Bruce Bowen on purpose. Popovich kept him in the game regardlesss. And Shaq HAS dramatically improved his free throws. As long as he takes his time he'll hit them, when he rushes he'll miss. Just like Timmy D.

    Nazr Mohammed wasn't exactly an offensive force for them last year. Neither was Rasho Nestovic. In fact, I think Ben, offensively, is way better than they are.

    Having Sheed or Dice play center permanently for the Pistons could have major complications. Dice's injured knee can't withstand long minutes, and having Darko back him up will drop the defensive standpoint a lot (until proven otherwise). Sheed doesn't like banging in the post as much anymore and has been known to become more of a perimeter player. Shooting baseline shots but when he does go post he owns (when not double teamed)

    I still say that his position is the easiest to replace. There's lots of talented guards out there who just need playing time to prove themselves. I love Rip, but I think the offense is run through Chauncey, not through him.

    Whatever Ben gets paid will be worth it, the more he ages, and the less he'll be able to contribute defensively on the court he'll be able to make up for with his voice and his tutoring. You don't think he's been teaching Darko a few things? Remember the flex he gave in Europe recently? Really Wallacex2-esque to me.
  19. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    you don't pay a player 10 or 12 million to coach darko young darko. unless ben develops a free throw line jumper and does it real fast he has nothing to compensate with if his body fails him.

    sheed can check most of the centers in the nba with the exception of shaq. this year we will probably zone miami since they lost a lot of 3 point shooting. dice's injured knee can play 30 minutes and that's enough. we can split the minutes at center/forward 3 ways just like we did last year. also don't forget dale davis he's still a good defensive player. anything sheed/darko/mcdyess does on the offensive end will be better than ben. ben's man often plays zone and rests on defense.

    his position is easy to replace but not at the price we are getting rip at. there is a young center/forward on our team who just needs playing time to prove himself. the offense is not ran through chauncey look at the shots per game and you will see who the offense is ran through.
    you don't pay a player 12 million for his voice. yes i believe he's taught darko lots of things. i think he will continue to show him things. but at what price?? so i disagree with whatever ben gets paid it will be worth it. if ben asks for too much money joe should let him go with the right combination of darko showing game and ben declining. he could be gone.
  20. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    The main line there is IF. Everything we're saying is on a chance, a chance he'll get injured, a chance he'll really deteriorate as a player. All this can't be taken to a literal level, all we can go on now is that he's one of the top centers in the league and in a center-lacking league, he's a high commodity. Look at the free agents next year for centers: there's no one nearly worth the money that we're gonna offer Ben.

    What if Dice gets injured? I'd worry more about that then Ben in my opinion, and Dice isn't exactly young himself neither and once again, offense is easy to learn: it just takes confidence and skill. Ben's been working on developing that. Look for him to shoot more this year.

    Also: look at other centers in the league. Many of them don't have any type of shot at all but they're being paid ridiculous amounts of money (i.e Adonal Foyle) for their abilities in defence.

    Actually, I think Ben is somewhat of an offensive force. His offensive rebounds, put backs and alley-oops has been known to help spark the team's intensity along with the crowd. Ben's man does play zone; but at the same time its not enough to make that big of a difference.

    Look at the playoffs. Who held the ball? Who dished it around? The point guard is the most important player on the team, he's the one that orchestrates and runs the offense, ESPECIALLY in Pistons basketball. Rip runs around screens and gets open for a shot; he doesn't run around with the ball, he gets it given to him. The offense is run through Chauncey, regardless of how many shots Rip takes.

    I'm speaking in terms of worst-case scenario. If Ben is injured (knock wood) he'll still have an effective role in the team in some way. How about this for a question?

    You have 12 million a year. All five starters next year are free agents. Who do you give the biggest deal to?

    Rip doesn't deserve it in my opinion. The SG position is easily replaced/very cheaply replaced. So many guards are produced nowadays because no one wants to be the big man who plays hard D. Everyone wanted to be Jordan.

    Sorry if there's a lack of sense if you don't get it. I'm in class at university right now on my laptop. Profs = boring.

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