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Expendable?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by MotownPride, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    I don't care how bad his free-throws are. Ben is the heart of this team, and without him this team dies. Let me let you know that it was Ben who almost got us to 2 straight championships.
     
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    bball jay, fair enough. But I will take the stats over your (or my) memory. Like I said, we tend to remember specific instances rather than the total experience.

    Re: Grant. Horace had a jumper, but Ben is an elite defender and rebounder. Lindsey Hunter is testament to the fact that the jumper goes before the defensive skills.

    I can see Sheed going so Darko can play the 4 before I see Ben moving to the bench.
     
  3. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    60 % is still a bad percentage.

    ben was a part of 2 championships. he didn't win mvp when we won the championship and he wouldn't have won it this year if we won it. so i am not sure why you say ben won it for us. actually this year if ben hadn't opened up with a couple of stinker games we might have won the championship. i'm not saying ben isn't valuable i'm just saying he isn't as valuable as some might think. i think chauncey is the heart and the leader of the team.
     
  4. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Ben would definently get finals MVP last season even Chauncey said that, and he was doing great too. And he's not going to stay at 60 he's still improving the guy probably works on his free throws for at least an hour a day he has to get better. Also it was not like anyone else was doing anything in the first 2 games, but Ben started our comeback less than 1 second into Game 3. Also we don't really have 1 leader all of our starters are leaders on this team.
     
  5. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i can't recall when exactly lindsey had a jumper for it to go before his defense. lindsey is not a big man so his defense is largely ground based. ben already is undersized for a big man so he relies on being able to jump higher and be stronger than other players to be successful. as he get older that jumping high and being stronger aren't going to be the case. ben has to be more than just a serviceable big man in his twilight year as a pistons because he'll be commanding a much bigger salary than lindsey or horace.

    if sheed goes to the bench it will be a voluntary move. sheed is too good defensively and offensively to be put on the bench. ben is one dimensional so i see us getting rid of him before we get rid of any of our other bigs. who play both ends of the court. darko doesn't have to be a true center he just has to be a center defensively. him and sheed/mcdyess will still be a great defensive frontcourt. what makes our frontcourt so good defensively is that they are interchangeable. now with sheed,darko,mcdyess they are all interchangeable offensively too. if sheed is traded it would be because joe wouldn't want to trade ben because of fan backlash but ben would be the smartest trade out of any of the starters in my opinion.
     
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    chauncey and mcdyess were the only ones consistently bringing it throughout the series. he was saddled with foul trouble in game 7. sorry but ben was not mvp of the finals not even close. ben started game 3 off right i'll give you that one. but he wasn't mvp like during that series. he was outplayed too often by duncan he also clogged up our offense.
     
  7. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    ut oh

    I can just see Wylie E. Micro sitting there opening a box labeled ACME Instant Thread Closers. :laugh:



     
  8. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    most expendable

    Rip is probably the most expendable just because Tay or Chauncey could play SG if needed. In other words we could conceivably trade Rip for a PG, SG, or SF, and not really miss a beat.
     
  9. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Come on...you gotta give it up for Ben now... :)

    I disagree with your synopsis on Ben, but this line is very funny. LMAO!

    Without Ben on the team the Pistons are a completely different defensive team. Ben Wallace intimidates players with his activity and exceptional athletic ability. He appears to be declining simply because people are slow to challenge him these days. An intentional walk so to speak. ;)

    I will say that Ben did not control the game this year as we have seen in previous years with the intensity I've only seen rivaled by perhaps Krilenko. Make no mistake though, we lose Ben and we are no longer the most impressive defensive team in the league. We will move down a couple of notches. Ben does so much that is not captured in stats..a poke hear, a front there, a loose ball there, an opportune box out...he is the master of stats not captured.

    To negate Ben's affect on our team is a gross oversight.
     
  10. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    ben is most expendable just because, darko, mcdyess, sheed, davis maxiell can fill in the front court if needed. we could trade ben for both a small forward and a 2 guard and not miss a beat. ben would get us more in a trade than rip would. rip is a bargain at the 2 guard. he's getting better defensively. i like him better than tay on wade, better than chauncey on iverson. he was also flirting with triple doubles at the end of the season. rip is also extending his range to 3 point land. so in other words rip is on his way up and we won't get as much for him in a trade. ben is on his way down real soon and we will get much more than what we would get for rip in a trade.
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Nah, we're all cool.

    People just have to remember that you cannot win an argument with bball jay. He's an expert debater and will not concede easily. I can only argue with him for so long though, because pretty soon he has me doubting my stance and then I start thinking about creating 15 man, minute distribution posts.
     
  12. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    without ben we we are a completely different offensive team also. the dropoff in defense which isn't that much is countered by an incredible increase in offense. not having ben's man clogging up the paint opens up drives and post ups for other players. rewatch the finals ben's and ecf ben's man doubled tayshaun every time in the post. i'm not even talking about stats with ben it's just getting to the point where he's one dimensional and the people behind him play both ends of the court and don't rely on athleticism.

    i'm not negating ben's value. i'm just saying it isn't as valuable as people think. yes he makes big plays and anchors us defensively. but he stalls us offensively. sorry but defense wasn't our problem last year. out of the starters he's expendable.
     
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    If you lose The best defensive Player on the Planet it's going to really effect your defense. Hey, Shaq is probably worse than Ben at free-throws.
     
  14. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Hold up now...

    Lose Ben and then defense will slowly start becoming the problem. Our team is built for defensive intensity. That is what our niche is. Tap with that and you stand the risk of making us mediocre.

    I would liken that to the same risk they are taking in Phoenix..changing the dynamic of the team at the expense of another could lead to mediocrity.

    We've seen this team play without Ben's presence before..due to injury..and it wasn't pretty. His dismissal would probably be the easiest way to destroy chemistry on this great team. Noone and absolutely noone is more commited toward keeping up the defensive intensity on that team than Ben. Who would be the defensive leader on that team without Ben? Sheed? Ben sets the tone and the rest of the team follows!
     
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    shaq is worse than ben at free throws especially if you consider the fact that shaq shoots a lot more free throws than ben does. it's just that shaq is a great offensive force ben isn't.

    i disagree with how much ben wallace not being around would affect the defense. i think we played very good defensively with sheed and mcdyess in there instead of ben. if you count the miami series we played very well with elden in there instead of ben. darko and sheed will be a very quick, long and athletic front line. plus we will score on the other end.

    i'm not saying ben should be traded. i really like ben on the pistons it's just if you had to choose 1 to go i'd choose him. the amount of money we are going to have to pay him for a rapidly declining player makes him expendable in my opinion. he's not like webber who can play on no knees because of his excellent passing and jump shooting.
     
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    OK, but there is no proof that Ben is declining in anyway. Or are you saying that he is declining and the stats are magically staying consistent?

    Ben had a lot of factors affect him last year. Recovery from late summer surgery. Bone Spurs. An ill child. Death of a friend. The Brawl.

    And he still improved himself offensively. What will Ben be in 3 years? We don't know. But there is no proof he is on the decline. That's premature grave dancing.
     
  17. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Come on, didn't yu just see motownprides post. We did bad without Ben. Don't you remember the first game Ben was suspended, and Lebron poured 43 points not by shooting jumbers, but by getting into the no fly zone where Ben would usually of stopped James. Also Elden does better on Shaq because he played with him, and nows his moves Plus he's larger than Ben.
     
  18. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    Man, I love this place. You guys are great. You had me ROTFLMAO with that.

    BTW: I do agree with alot of what BBall Jay has to say. He does make some pretty valid points.
     
  19. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    I can't imagine a scenario where we trade Ben. "The bar is high"- thats because Ben Wallace sets the standard for effort, hustle, determination, and passion. Plus, he is the BEST maybe of all time at what he does. No combination of Darko, Dyess, Sheed, Davis or Maxiell could replace Ben. He just works too hard. Hopefully, Darko and JMax will recieve the NFZ torch when Ben's wings are decommissioned, but those are big shoes to fill.
     
  20. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    the league has legislated against defense. the league is trying to change to a more offensive league. the pistons are one of the only teams not to take advantage of this new league. we are stuck in the grind it out type of offense of the old days. we need to adapt. i'm not saying give up defense entirely but offense is just as important nowadays.

    we saw this team play without ben on an lb squad. playing without ben on a flip squad can and will be totally different. i think you don't give mcdyess, sheed, darko and davis enough credit defensively. those guys are not that much of a defensive dropoff from ben. with the exception of dale davis they are all superior to ben offensively. sorry but we won't stop playing defense if ben leaves.

    microwave
    nope it's just every year ben is playing in the playoffs with bone spurs. it's a thing called age that has me predicting ben wallace decline. he may stay at the same level for 3 more years but he certainly isn't on the incline. you give big money long term deals to players on the incline. ben is 1 knee sprain from being rendered pretty useless. he relies heavily on athleticism.
     

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