Expendable?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by MotownPride, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I know I am not in the minority on this board when I say that I strongly believe the Detroit Pistons have the best starting 5 in basketball. All of the players contribute in a manner that is unique and very difficult to replace. I can't remember another situation in the NBA where a sum has been so much greater than its parts. This poses an interesting question, which thankfully we don't have to answer....but for grins we will....

    What Detriot Piston in the starting lineup do you believe is the most expendable? least expendable?

    My vote for least expendable would have to be the heart and soul of the Detroit Pistons, Ben Wallace. His presence defines the work ethic, emotion, and teamwork that the entire team has made its mantra the past couple seasons. I think that the absence of Ben Wallace to the Detroit Pistons immediately changes the tone of the team. Rasheed makes a good team great, but Ben makes the Pistons...the Pistons.

    Most expendable? That is a very difficult question to answer. I think I would have to go with Rip. This is only because I believe that the shooting guard position is an area that can be replaced easily in this league. Rip's conditioning (cardio) is unbelievable. His mid-range game is topnotch. He has evolved to a pretty descent defender. It's just that if I had to pick, I could not give up Chauncey's big play ability, defense, poise, and vision. Nor, could I give up Rasheed's post up presence, defense, and passing ability. Tay might be the third best on-ball defender in the league (minus Artest and Bowden). Plus, his postup game is very underrated. So, my vote..regrettably is for Rip.

    Thank God this isn't a decison the Pistons are faced with in real life...yet. :)
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Ironically, Rip has the second longest deal after Sheed. Tay and Ben are not reupped yet AFAIK and CB's deal expires in 2 years.

    OTOH (gotta love those acronyms) Rip is still young (26~27) and hasn't hit his prime yet. People don't give Rip enough respect for his work ethic or defense. I think he is one of the better defenders at the 2 in the league. His footwork is great, he boards and he is tireless.

    I think Sheed is expendable if Darko can come on. IF Darko can come on in a big way.
  3. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    ???

    Sorry I must be slow today. :confused:
  4. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Kind of like the Beatles

    I look at it in terms of heart, soul, mind and body. Odd man out is expendable...although I also don't want to lose any of them.

    With the Beatles you had:

    John Lennon...mind
    Paul McCartney...Heart
    George Harrison...Soul
    Ringo Starr...Body


    With the Pistons, I see:

    Chauncey...mind
    Sheed...soul
    Ben...heart
    Prince...body

    Rip is the odd man out. :rip:
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    AFAIK
    -
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    thank you kind sir. :)

    I had never seen/heard that acronynm used before.
  7. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I think when you look at expendable you also have to look at what position can easily be replaced and what the person being replaced brings to the table. I would say Tayshaun is more easily replaced.

    You can find a Small Foward's all around the league that are bigger and put up more points. His defense may slack off from Tay's quite a bit but with Ben and Sheed in the paint that would force the guy to shoot jump shots.
  8. Jackattaq

    Jackattaq First Round Draft Pick

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    Let me take a stab at it.

    AS FAR AS I KNOW.
  9. #1Pistonfan

    #1Pistonfan First Round Draft Pick 2x Fantasy Champion

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    expendable

    from least to most...

    Tay
    C-note
    Ben / Sheed



    Rip
  10. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    show off! lol.
  11. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Tay or Rip easier to replace but...

    But even those two guys can do things that few can. I like guys that are unique talents and all five are unique. Teams distinguish themselves when they have a few guys on the team that can have that special capacity. We really have five such guys.
  12. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    This is so tough. Look Rip is improving a lot he just needs to work on not getting frustrated that's why he messed up against Bowen. i remember in the last 5-10 games Rip was either 1 assist off, or 1 board off a triple-double 3 games in a row. He means a lot to this team.
  13. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    himat

    I don't think anyone was knocking Rip. Some people were just saying if you had to lose one of the starting five, he would be the player most easily replaced. Nobody said he would be easy to replace or that they wanted to replace him.
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    ben wallace

    is the most expendable. his defensive skills are declining. his offense ain't coming along at all. he actually attempts to score too much. his man basically plays zone and kills all of tay's or sheed post game. his man plays zone and destroys driving lanes and also messes up rips curls. he relies on athleticism and with the age and wear and tear on his body i don't think he's going to be that great for too many years. he also has a young 7 footer that plays both ends of the floor nipping at his heels. i wouldn't trade anyone on the pistons but of the starting 5 ben is the one that has to go. his size is also starting to become a problem. the young 7 footers of chicago give him problems, jerome james goes off on him, shaq destroys him, dwight howard gives him fits.

    i don't know if anyone remembers but our best lineups in the ecf and nba finals were when sheed and mcdyess were in at the same time. that lineup is absolutely unstoppable. mcdyess is also an underrated defender.
  15. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Come on Ben. His defense for your info isn't declining just because his stats are because unlike 3, or 4 years ago we got 2 other great defensive (and offensive) froncourt players with him. Plus he got the Defensive Player of the year award, and his offense is improving.
  16. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i'm not talking about stats. i'm just talking about ben not showing up for games. ben getting dogged by bigger more athletic centers. maybe if he moves to power forward he can extend his career. but make no mistake ben wallace is on the decline. i'm not saying he isn't still a great defensive player. i'm saying he isn't going to get better and he stinks at offense.

    ben can't hit a free throw to save his life which makes having the ball in his hands on offense dangerous. he also routinely just throws up some mess towards that basket and makes that "oh" sound that i hate so much. of the starters ben's game is the one that is declining which means if somebody has to go he has to go. he is already a one dimensional player so when the d starts to go what else is left??
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    bball jay,

    Ah yes, the push Ben into retirement for Darko movement...

    Statistically, Ben and Dice were better than Sheed and Dice during the playoffs.

    http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PDET2.HTM

    Ben's FG attempts per game were lower last year than 2004. His FG% also improved as well. If you look at his 40 minute stats (for the purpose of gauging one year versus another) his play is consistent despite suspension and recovery from surgery.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html

    You gotta be careful when making a subjective argument because we tend to remember the best and the worst. Averages and season totals will bear out a more plausible truth.

    I'm all for DMC replacing Ben when he can take the job. Something tells me that Ben is not going to give it up without a fight.
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    One more for ya.

    I noticed that Ben's career has matched up with Horace Grant's several times. So I did a career comparison.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/labs/comp.cgi?I=grantho01%3AHorace+Grant&y1=&C=wallabe01%3ABen+Wallace&y2=&s=r&t=g&submit=Compare

    Keep in mind that Grant's numbers will never go higher, but Ben is in his prime and can make up a lot of ground on old Horace.

    Now Grant played until he was 38, and until he was 36 he was a starter.

    In 2001 he started 77 games and won a championship with LA.

    Now please don't tell me that Horace is a better player than Ben, because he wasn't. Ben is a leader and catalyst, Horace was a role player.
  19. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Ben shoots 50% free throws for the 05 season, but he sot 40% in the first half, and 60% in the second half. He's improving.
  20. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    microwave

    yes. you posted for throughout the playoffs that ben and sheed were better. i am strictly speaking the ecf and nba finals. against miami we went with sheed and mcdyess to counter zo and shaq. against san antonio the lineup with sheed and mcdyess didn't allow duncan to hide on ben. you have stats to back your argument up but i have my memory. i remember the lineup with sheed and mcdyess was much more offensively potent and not too much of a slack off defensively. i don't think the lineup was used very often in other series though so that may be why it isn't ahead of ben and dice lineup.

    horace grant played with micheal jordan so i agree he isn't better than ben wallace. i don't think he's even close. horace grant also had a pretty good foul line jumper that extended his career. ben does not have that to extend his career so i just don't see him playing until he's 38 at a high level. also horace grant was not making the kind of money ben will command this year. we will end up with a 10 million dollar no offense declining defense big man. sure if ben signs for 6 million i say keep him for life. but for 10 - 15 million i say he's expendable.

    i'm not saying push ben into retirement for darko. i would keep ben on as a piston for his career. but if somebody in the starting 5 had to go i would let ben go. we have a young center ready to take over mcdyess bench role. he's 7 footer can block shots, score, pass and hit free throws. i'm saying out of the starting 5 he is the one that can be most easily replaced by someone we have on the team.

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