Ex-Pistons

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by jzchen, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    You are correct. But the fans here see it as him being thrown in. They refuse to see his value. Absolutely, its Middleton as much as anything that Milwaukee wanted in the deal.

    Anyway, I wanted to give a brief recap of the loss to Brooklyn by the Bucks. Basically, it was a close game, pretty much tied well into the 3rd quarter. Milwaukee took Middleton as well as Knight out of game. Milwaukee fell back to about 10 down and quickly brought Middleton and Knight back in. Knight though quickly had to sit because of a cut for a while. Milwaukee never managed to claw back, and lost by 8.

    Milwaukee is just not that good of a team without Middleton. They are not that great with him either, but they did just beat Washington on the strength of 29 points from Middleton. In the Brooklyn game, of note, while Middleton did miss some runners, he only missed one perimeter shot.

    While on the subject, I know a lot of people want to think Stuckey failed us as a point guard. But really, I don't think so. He continually won his individual matchup at point, even against the strongest points in the league. Even this season, when played at point, he has an overwhelming advantage over the opposing point while he is in the game.

    We would be, in my opinion, if we had never made the trade, and still had Middleton - and Knight, as the backup point to Stuckey.

    Middleton could be backing up both Smith and Pope right now.

    Our rotation should be: Stuckey, Pope, Smith, Monroe, Drummond.

    2nd unit: Knight, Middleton, Mitchell, Harrellson (with any of Drummond, Smith, or Monroe taking turns being part of the 2nd unit.)
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  2. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Lee did you see that Amir Johnson scored 32 pts and 10 boards on the Lakers Gasol and Jordan Hill last night? He was unstoppable. Would love to see him as the first guy off the bench instead of Singler..............sometimes you just have to wait to get from under Flip and Curry's coaching regimen before you can blossom....
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  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Yeah, I saw it. But I have not been watching many Toronto games yet. My focus has been, of course, on the Pistons, then Milwaukee, then Washington. And Houston, then Cleveland. Toronto is last on my list, of the six teams I am following at the moment. Last game for Toronto by the way, the highest plus guy was Daye. If they get wise and start playing Daye, I will start watching more Toronto games. PS, I did watch the game just before the trade - Toronto was having a lot of problems. Can't say Gay was their whole problem, but he sure was not having a good year.
  4. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Over 4 seasons in Detroit, Austin Daye played for two coaches and averaged:
    16.1 mpg
    5.5 pts
    0.6 threes
    2.9 rebs
    0.8 assists
    0.4 steals
    0.4 blocks

    In half a season in Memphis he averaged (in 31 games)
    10.6 mpg
    4.0 pts
    0.6 threes
    1.7 rebs
    0.7 assists
    0.3 steals
    0.5 blocks

    So far in Toronto he averaged (in 5 games)
    5.2 mpg
    1.2 pts
    0.0 threes
    0.6 rebs
    0.4 assists
    0.0 steals
    0.0 blocks

    His per-36 minute stats are what you call a statistical flat line over the years.

    You look at his advanced stats like ORtg or DRtg, and they show that he's just average.

    You look at his advanced play-by-play stats and he spent 60% of his playing time over his career at the SF spot, which is supposedly his ideal position. His best +/- stats were when he was playing for us last year (which I would attribute more to playing alongside Drummond than anything). He followed that up with his worst per 100 possession +/- values of his career last year playing for Memphis. Over his 4 years in the NBA (excluding this year) he has mastered a grand total of 27 and-1s (where he gets fouled on a made FG).

    Everything points to this kid being nothing more than a bench-warmer. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that indicates this kid is more than what he is. Either every coach he played for, every trainer, every sportscaster, every fan is somehow completely wrong, or it is that he is a nice kid who just is not that special.
  5. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    So Walter you are saying that Daye was a wasted draft pick or Kuester just couldn't coach a decent player out of the rookie....
  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm not sure that 27 and-1's for a perimeter player in 3,666 minutes is that horrible. That is 1 every 136 minutes.

    Korver averages an and-1 every 151 minutes this year.
    Battier averages one every 439 minutes (i.e. he has 1 this season so far).

    The special-est thing about Daye is his 3-point shooting. He's a career .351 shooter from deep, but he does have 2 separate NBA seasons under his belt where he finished the season above .400 (.418 and .401). Those 2 seasons are big samples as he got significant playing time. The sample size for those is 127 games, 2,000+ minutes, and 270 three point attempts. He can shoot the ball.

    Here is how Daye's career rates (per 36) compare with our current year's Pistons:
    13.1 points. Smith averages 14.2.
    .506 TS%. Jennings averages .502
    .351 3P%. Jennings average .357
    6.5 rebounds. Smith averages 6.7.
    1.9 assists. Pope is at 1.3
    1.0 steals. Stuck is at 1.2.
    1.1 blocks. Monroe is at 0.7

    So, if you get Daye, you're getting a guy that scores like Josh Smith with efficiency equal to Brandon Jennings. He rebounds like Josh Smith, assists like Pope, steals the ball like Stuckey, and blocks 50% more shots than our starting PF, Greg Monroe.

    With Daye, you're getting versatility and maybe that is not needed. Maybe teams are finding that they are better having guys at each position that do some things better than Daye and some things worse. He's a skilled player though in many respects.
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    This is a heck of a lot of meaningless data, as you surely know. Toronto has barely played Daye, and what he has played, has been out of position at power forward. Pretty much the same in Memphis. In Detroit, if you recall, we used him extensively as a starter one season, but out of position at power forward. Why not at small forward, his natural position? We seemed to have an unwritten rule around here, nobody could be established as a backup to Tay. The next year, was the shortened season. Daye never got his feet established before we pulled him out of the rotation. Never mind we actually did fine with Daye in, even if he had lost his shot due to the extensive layoff. His defense was good enough to make us a good team with him on the floor.

    Last year, Daye happened to be our only plus player we had. The only player who can say that the Pistons scored more points while he was on the floor, vs. the other team.

    Daye is a formerly extremely popular player, a starter for us, who could shoot lights out that one year. Guess what, he is still the same player. Just needs a coach who is smart enough to play him.
  8. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    @LA Dre: I'm not saying he was a wasted pick. He was an intriguing prospect that didn't pan out.
    @TaS: I stand corrected on the and-1s thing. I didn't realize that's how he measured against other shooters. Comparing his stats to current Pistons is interesting, but the point is: would you trade ANY of Smith, Pope, Stuckey, Monroe or Jennings for Daye?

    Daye's versatility is just a myth. He could have become a serviceable player in this league. So far, he has not delivered.
  9. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I just watched Milwaukee beating Chicago. The game stayed close enough most of the way.

    Half way into the 3rd quarter, Milwaukee was down 10. Knight and Middleton came into the game. And stayed in the game until the end. Milwaukee soon had a 6 point lead, and Chicago never quite caught back up. Some luck was involved, as Henson at one point put up a prayer 3 as the clock was running out, and nailed it.

    Knight was providing the fireworks on offense, and both were helping Milwaukee have a good solid D, with Middleton several times making defensive plays.

    Henson had a career game.

    Milwaukee's coach shuffled a lot of players in and out after mid - 3rd quarter, but he was wise enough to leave Knight and Middleton in the game. Good coaching.

    PS, while Jennings looks good at times, the fact he can't for the life of him hit a simple right handed layup from the right of the basket makes him really no more effective than Knight on offense. Knight has no such problems, finishing anyway he chooses, from left handed or right handed from the left, or left handed or right handed from the right. Pretty good at all. I wish Jennings would get in the gym and practice these simple fundamentals.
  10. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    It is not meaningless data. That is his resume. That is what he has accomplished.

    Sorry, but I'm just not buying this "Daye is a monster player who is being held back by clueless coaches" idea. He has played for FOUR different coaches now. FOUR! He has been given opportunities to show what he can do; as you said, he was a starter for us for a while. Some players are good enough to seize that opportunity and never let go (Tay Prince is the perfect example). Some are not. Daye is lacking something. Whatever it is, maybe mental, maybe situational, he just hasn't delivered.
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    No, those guys all have higher market value than daye. However, if he were on our team right now, I'd play him to stretch the floor over cv.

    So i guess I'm trying to say that I'd trade our 2nd highest paid player for a guy that is on the fringe of going overseas.
  12. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Now you're finally starting to get it.
  13. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm agreement with you there. I'd much rather have Daye come off the bench than CV.
  14. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Austin Daye has never been that good. He was the third option on his team at Gonzaga, and they played in a pretty weak conference. He had the 4th best FG% of the 5 starting Bulldogs. His eFG% was the 8th best on his team. He had a few good shooting games during the tournament, and the fact that he is 6'11" got him a job in the NBA. This season, Austin is going to make just $950,890. He'll make a little bit more next year. Must be nice to be 6'11" and have a couple weeks worth of hot shooting.
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Shooting over 250 nba treys at a plus 40% clip should be appreciated. How many of the 8 guys with higher efgs from his gonzaga team did that? If you're tall, you get your shot off better. Tall and good shooter is valuable.
  16. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Arnie made him do that push-up drill. Wrecked his career. Poor kid.
  17. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I think the only other guy to make it to the NBA was the center, Robert Sacre. He plays for the Los Angeles Lakers, but he's not exactly a household name.
    It's nice that he can shoot NBA 3's at a plus 40% clip, but he really can't do anything else. Also, part of why he can shoot at that percentage is because no one guards him. If he averaged 20-25 minutes a game, and shot threes at plus .40, then someone would start guarding him, and he would no longer shoot threes at plus .40.

    I'm not hating on the kid, he just isn't that great of a basketball player, no matter how you look at his stats.
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  18. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    So you like Frank enough not to call him clueless. I will disagree on that. Anyway, you have to look at the circumstances. For instance, until just now, Rudy Gay was getting all the minutes at small forward for Toronto. Lets see what happens now with him gone off the team. Here is a hard fact for you - Daye has gotten no real shot from anyone at regular playing time since the beginning of the strike shortened season.

    Judge all you want, but if I were you, I would wait until he plays again on a regular basis before I make my opinion all that solid.

    PS, by your standards, Billups should have been judged a failure after a few years. Far more so that Daye from his first years.
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Forgot about that. Arnie turned a 40 percent guy into a 20 percent guy. We don't hear much about the drill anymore.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Maybe this advice goes two ways.
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