ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:30 PM

Discussion in '2008 Playoffs' started by Dlev59, May 23, 2008.

  1. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    No doubt Flip is partially to blame, but when your starters lay eggs, the team has no chance. You can't win when you've got these kind of numbers from two of your main guys:

    Billups was -25 and 1-for-6 FG.

    Prince was -23 and 2-for-11 FG.
     
  2. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Cute and flashy but lacking in substance, considering that between the two of us you were the first person to "assume". You assume that Flip doesn't say something to his players just because you weren't there.
    [sarcasm]
    I wasn't aware that you had replaced the sun as the current center of the universe, your highness.[/sarcasm] :)


    Bottom line, Dlev, is that there is a whole lot of playing and coaching experience wearing suits on that sideline. To assume that information has been passed on to players, especially when the coaching staff has already relayed said info to the members of the press, is hardly a leap of logic.

    The erroneous conclusion (at best) is to assume that it has not. But if thats the corner you want to stand in...by all means go right ahead sir.

    As for players that continuously disregard the intended directions of coaching staff....sounds to me like your beef is with Mr. Presidente. At the end of the day the buck ultimately stops with him.
     
  3. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    Your right, CW...Let me apologize for even thinking that the greatest playoff coach of alllll time, our beloved Flip Saunders , is not doing the greatest 10 yr playoff run any of us has ever seen. I dont know what Ive been watching. Only have done it for 40 years. I bow to your wisdom, Old Cloud Walker........


    :pound::pound:
     
  4. max

    max All-Star

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    Look how easy it was for them to put aside their differences around the turn of the century when Kaiser built up his super army that threatened them both. Maybe the moral is that some always need an enemy.
     
  5. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    And here I was expecting you to kick some play breaking-down or some such. I thought you would at the very least explain Bostons defense, and why driving to the rim would be possible without movement, or what play in particular the Pistons should run while remaining steadfast in their "army of two" offense.

    But discussing the intricacies of both teams offensive and defensive principles isn't as easy as bashing the coach.

    I understand.

    As you were.
     
  6. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Huh?

    So the folk in the suits are not held accountable for the actions of the players they are coaching?

    Tell me that`s not what you are saying.

    And Cloud I know you are not that naive to think that whatever a player or coach says to the media that the same is not always communicated to same player or coach.

    If a player blatantly disregards a coache`s instruction I agree that the president should step in, however, what should the coach do?

    I guess Flip should go to Joe D and say, "uh, Joe, they won`t listen to me", between sobs!
     
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I give up. The hate Flip for everything club wins.

    This place is loaded with great fans with great minds, b-ball related and otherwise.

    Only blind hatred can actually make some of you think any of Flips timeouts consist of "Just keep isoing Tay on the perimeter and get out of his way!"

    Therefore, I have come to the realization that there is no reasoning on the matter.

    White flag.

    I give up.:yield:
     
  8. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Actually Cloud I don`t hate Flip. I know some on the forum might, but I don`t.

    However, we must hold him accountable just like the players.

    I equally blame Flip and the players for this teams lack of focus, intensity and direction.

    Also, as you pointed out Joe D must take his share of the blame too.
     
  9. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Are you so naive as to not realize that communication through the media is communication nontheless?

    Ask Phil Jackson and Larry Brown.

    Bottom line is, if we hear it, they have heard it.

    You know that, why be coy about it?

    Either way I'm finished attempting to be the voice of reason.

    I agree. It's all Flip, No matter what other coach that would otherwise be in you folks "good/great" list happens to side with him on most issues.

    Though I'm sure if Daly came out and said "oh, it's the coach" you guys would be all over it. :)

    It's Flip. It's all Flip. He must go. We could win it all right now if it were XXXX instead of him. I'm sure of it.
     
  10. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Cloud I am talking about communication DURING A GAME!

    Not during post game pressers!

    Take the quote from Lindsey after game 1, about Rip not having to shoot every time down the floor.

    Something tells me Flip didn`t tell Rip that, if he did why would Lindsey have to repeat it to him?

    Lindsey went to Rip with that, then the media picked it up.

    You are right, when the media hears it, the players do, the problem is, they hear it after the fact, or after the game!
     
  11. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Something tells you that Flip didn't tell Rip to move the ball and not to shoot the ball after 1 to no passes? Its fundamental Flex offense. He shouldn't have to be told.

    Something tells me that I was hearing that in junior high, and by now it should be such a fundamental factor in "playing the right way" that Rip should know that, considering the previous coaches that he has played for.

    Personally, I think that Rip has been told. I think Lindsey went to the media with it because if Flip were to do it, it would be perceived as stooping low. Hunter is in an envious position between player and coach that allows him to do and say things like that (something very Brownlike) and not get judged as a "bad person" for doing so.

    I will concede that it (and all other things) is Flips fault.... irregardless :).....

    but there is no way that I will ever believe that fundamental aspects of offense and defense like moving, passing and rebounding missed shots aren't even being mentioned by three former players that made their money by adhering to these basic principles with more vigilance than the guy that was opposite them most of the nights in which they suited up.


    Say what you will about Flip, but his assistants were three hard nosed "Piston DNA" all the way players, and there is no way that players aren't hearing about it from at least these three individuals during the game when they are giving less than 100%

    No way at all.
     
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    If you're re-watching the game film, make note of how many times DET starts out on offense shaded to the left or right of the top of the 3 point circle and makes a 6 foot pass to the same side of the floor against a D that is already overloaded to that side. You are screaming trap me there. I suppose it is possible that the players make the plays up as they go, but to me that seems to be a philosophy of some sort.

    For all the "new" rules legislating D out of the games, the Pistons sure seem to score less than 80 points an awful lot.

    Billups may have been 1-6 and -25 last night, but the fact remains that this is the best ECF he has had since '05.

    Even picking up the ball and shooting against your own basket is not as effective as giving someone like Perkins a dunk to start the game.

    DET is always going to struggle rebounding the ball when they have to move their defense around so much to account for penetration.

    Winning G4 doesn't bring anything back. That can't happen until G5 at the earliest and that means winning 2 games in a row........
     
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Nice example there in regards to strong side passing. Working the ball to the weakside was one of the coaching staffs priorities going into game 2, yet the players all had selective amnesia heading into game 3.

    Go figure.
     
  14. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    Ok Cloud.

    Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

    Who is to blame? What should Flip do?
     
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    What if they do that, but drop game 6?

    I think it will happen. It's better to drag the losing out than to just get it over with.

    I'm getting ready for game 7's lopsided blowout debacle, and the continuous ESPN references to the "Boston Three Party" that will most assuredly make me want to vomit.
     
  16. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    break core. They are relying on eachother way too much.
     
  17. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    I think it was bballjay whom I agreed with in chat that the most frustrating part about Flip is that he won't bench the whole starting five for being bums.

    I think you and I agree that he should have done this a long time ago, until it sunk in.

    Unfortunately I think it may be too late now. He's obviously playing for precious wins, and likely for his job. To do it now would risk losing a game that the starters may still be able to pull out (we were sickeningly in it until more than halfway through the fourth last night) while simultaneously giving players, fans, and media a reason to blame the game on him and his ego for pulling the starters and "spotting the opposition precious points at a crucial time and blah blah blah" you know that deal.

    He's kind of screwed now IMO. All his chips are laying on whether or not the team can win despite mistakes he made, or choices he should have made, years ago.

    IMO, he should have seen the writing on the wall, and went Scott Skiles on Ben and Rasheed, rather than just hope he could tweak things here and there and ride the players talent infused with a few tricks of the trade he picked up to the championship.

    Theres the rub though. Flip isn't that type of guy. Joe knew that, yet he hired him anyway. So ultimately the blame for things not working out needs to be on Joe.

    He's the one that threw shoes in the oven and tried to pass them off as biscuits.

    As far as I'm concerned, if the Pistons don't win a Championship this year, it's time for Joe D. to eat them biscuits.
     
  18. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    i had to work today, so i'm on my mobile laptop...what the hell are u guys doing spending this much time on the computer today? get out!!!:pound:...
     
  19. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    Re: ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th 8:00 PM

    That pretty much sums up my view of this whole thing.
     
  20. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I must mention though, as I criticize a Flip Saunders decision, how aware I am that hindsight is 20/20.

    Scottie Skiles isn't coaching the Bulls anymore, despite his tough guy 'tude, and Ben and Rasheed could have told Bill D. to "Cut That Check" while they coasted the rest of the way into early playoff vacation. That would have put an end to the ECF "streak" before it even started.

    There is a downside to abrasiveness, and I sure as heck am not going to second guess Flips approach, as anything different may have led to the loss of Mr. Rasheed Wallace as well as Ben, if not more players.

    Perhaps that is where (once again) Coach Daly has a point in that todays NBA and it's players are very difficult to motivate and coach. Only the coaches that win a championship don't suck, and even in those cases they can still suck, see the countless Phil Jackson debates.

    Pop doesn't suck. He will probably never suck. Thats about it right? Rivers sucked last year, and unless he is capable of winning a 'ship and keeping up a track record he'll suck again.

    Sloan possibly doesn't suck, unless you are trying to win a 'ship with a good team, then he flat out stinks according to some Utah fans. Daly sucked , then he was Detroit royalty, then he left and started to suck wherever he went, according to fans wanting a championship.

    So who are we gonna bring in? Van Gundy? He will probably suck before the all-star break . Karl, Adelman, Woody, Cheeks, Avery? Don't they suck now? Isn't every coach available right now available because they currently suck in the minds of an entire state or two?

    Was The Czar working on the court with our players the other night shades of Ron Rothstein, rubbing his fingers together and mua-ha-ha-ing on the sidelines?

    I honestly don't know ladies and gents. The trend of hiring "who?" type guys as coaches seems to make more and more sense to me, as when it comes right down to it the personnel on the floor are more than capable of getting decent results regardless of and sometimes despite who is wearing the suit on the sideline.

    That is one thing that may be agreed upon no matter where you fall on the great Flip debate.

    And in light of that, I would have to say it's time for a retool. Coach, players. Everyone.
     

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