Dumars: Pistons must rebuild softened roster

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by markie8002000, May 25, 2010.

  1. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Everything must come to an end. GMs rarely leave on their own accord, so it is quite likely that Joe will be fired at some point.

    Joe's biggest weakness since 2004 has been the coaches IMO. Flip was a horrible coaching choice; the day he was hired I knew the run was over. The decision to hire TableCloth made Flip's hiring look like pure genius. The jury is still out on Q, but I'm not seeing anything that tells me that he's above mediocre.

    I wonder what Joe can do to fix the roster though. The way everything is organized, it looks like we'll be waiting for something to happen until 2014.
    linwood likes this.
  2. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    I see no fault with Joe's coaching decisions. Each coach lasted as long as they should have. LB needed to go after his meltdown. Flip proved that even with outstanding regular season results, the playoffs do count. Curry was a bad decision and was appropriately dismissed after one season. Coach K will be gone by the end of this season after another bad run.

    I just don't comprehend the slide of the team in the way it was molded. Joe seemed to have forgotten the formula for building a team first, going to work, defensive minded group of players. It also doesn't help that too many positions just don't have the appropriate starter.
  3. tads

    tads First Round Draft Pick

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    One of the biggest reasons that I am a Piston fan, going back to when I was a kid, was the notion that of character and the team coming first. This came the most from Mr. D, and in many ways is what is expected of Joe D from the whole organization and all of its fans, going back to before he was drafted. I know Mr. D and Joe worked closely together on trades and stuff, I assume this was even more so in the early goings.

    Now that he doesn't have Mr. D around as a guide it seems on a couple of different levels that he has strayed from the course. AI and T-Mac, drafting the Narcoleptic character problem, spending all that money on players who aren't defensively tough. These are signs that he has strayed off the path, but it is not evidence that this meandering was intentional. It may be some bad decisions that were a product of the stress of the time. I imagine Joe must have had trouble watching his mentor fall ill and die, only to see his widow go against his wishes and sell the franchise, to then see members of the organization defect to Olympia, others get fired, and then to cap it off, enduring the suicide of Matt Dobek. Along with that he had to watch his son go off to college, he probably has health problems and his brother passed away. Given what he had to deal with, I can imagine that he can learn from his mistakes and be successful under a new owner.
    I'd pump the brakes at this point. First off Joe did blow it up. Rip, Tay, Bynum, Maxiell, and Stuckey are the only ones left from our last playoff appearance, and I can't imagine that all 5 will remain on the roster next year.

    BTW, we didn't trade Chauncey for AI, we traded him for AI's contract. The cap space was used to get Ben Gordon and CV. Hate on them if you want, but they were the best free agents signed that summer. It says something if he was able to talk them into coming on board what could have been a sinking ship.

    It also seems to me that Joe D is in the process of blowing things up. Blowing it up, like you describe, is quite a process, and one that might not work if there is not buy-in from the ownership. In Joe D's situation, where there is no ownership, I would have sat still all summer too, made a couple of very safe moves, and otherwise waited to get orders from the new owner.

    Now that we know Illitch is the new owner, we know Joe will be getting orders from someone familiar with the Pistons philosophy, and familiar with winning. If Joe uses this season as a fresh start and works with Olympia to rebuild a solid Pistons team, we could be competitive very soon. I also don't see the Illitch's canning Joe (dude has a statue named after him). Joe is a big name, who is connected to lots of people, they probably won't get rid of him unless they can at least pick his brain for a year or two.
  4. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    Let Illitch bring in Kevin Pritchard to rebuild this team.
  5. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Not only just any other team, but specifically Minnesota, which chose to go with Darko, not Jefferson, after seeing the two play side by side for much of a season. I guess unless he wants to bash Dumars for letting Darko go in the first place, he should keep quiet.

    PS. After drafting Darko, we won it all. The next year, we came within one quarter of hoops of winning it all again.

    After giving Darko away, we have done nothing but gone down hill.
  6. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm not sold on the guy as much as everybody in the world seems to be. He has built a team that is better then when he took over, but the team has yet to win anything... we don't care about regular season wins... do it in the playoffs or who cares. Much like Joe he had great luck early with one sided trades, he's got that on his resume now. So like with Joe, GM's are going to not bite on trades so fast...

    As much as we want to rip Joe for the Darko pick.... look at his first draft pick....


    I'll stay with what we have over the "grass is greener guy"
  7. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I can find no fault in this correlation. As for causation, however...
  8. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Have you ever heard of the "Curse of the Bambino"?
  9. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Great and thoughtful post.
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If Joe traded CB for AI's contract, then he did some serious lying to the fans and to AI.


    That sounds like a horrific trade to me.

    And Joe spun that into long term contracts for Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva just because they happened to be the best of a weak FA crop the year before the best FA crop ever? That is impressively bad.


    I do agree that Joe will be difficult to fire because of his reputation, which is still of a player who won multiple ships and a GM with a ship... and of a really classy guy.
  11. tads

    tads First Round Draft Pick

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    Certainly horrific for AI, but he got what he wanted, he got to start for a long time, and he played his way onto the bench. The team "laid down on him" AFTER he decided not to go along with the team's decision to bench him. Seems like he quit on the team first.

    The fact that this interview didn't come out until October shows that the situation was handled effectively, as opposed to some press row AI tirade that lives on forever in youtube. If you look at back how the actual season went down, the way AI's meltdown was handled was pretty classy.
  12. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    Not really. Joe offered Ben and CV a lot more $$ than anyone else was willing to offer. Of course they were going to sign with us.
  13. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Hindsight. It's easy to say that when we don't know what they would have gotten elsewhere. If the season after that one was even close to an indication of how much they would have gotten from other teams (and it surely was), I believe you would be mistaken on this point.
  14. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    TaS is a hater plain and simple.

    Bad FA signings? "Summer workout warrior" Charles Villanueva is in a 3 man battle to start at PF.

    Charlie Villanueva in 3-man battle as Pistons starting forward | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

    So there you go, he is neck and neck with a rookie who might be the slowest guy to ever play in the L and a guy who weighs 200 lbs!!! (And all it took to get it to this point was a season ending injury to the presumed starter.) I don't see how you can say that is a bad signing.

    I also don't see where you are coming from saying the roster situation is clouded. Day might be best served playing the 3 since they're rebuilding but..........

    Austin Daye's emergence further clouds Detroit Pistons' rotation possibilities | MLive.com

    The 80's are over. The Bad Boys aren't walking through those doors. The days of 200+ lbs guys playing PF are as outdated as having a PG on the roster. Do you ride a horse & buggy to the games also?
  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I politely disagree. The Saunders hiring was just as bad as the MC hiring IMO. His coaching style was the complete opposite of the team's identity and his track record in the playoffs was abysmal. That team needed an alpha dog coach to keep Sheed (and apparently Rip) in check and we ended up getting a coach that is as tough as a ballerina. The day Saunders signed we have transitioned from a contender to a regular season team that just doesn't have what it takes to win it all. We became the new Sacramento Kings. Or Dallas Mavericks of the East if you will.
  16. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    While I agree that Flip was a bad choice to coach the Pistons (albeit for different reasons than you state), I think Mr. D was chiefly responsible for the ECF ceiling.

    The day the lux tax line became the limit is the day the Pistons became more bark than bite and did not have what it takes to win it all.
  17. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Oh sure, dance on the man's grave why don't cha.

    How soon you forget that Bill-D coughed up some of that Guardian Glass cheddar to bring in the likes of NazMo, Tony Delk, Ron Murray, Rick Rickert, Super Dupe, Horace Jenkins, Smush Parker, Anthony Goldwire, Rufus Henry, Temaine Fowlkes, Chris Webber and Dale Davis.

    That's an entire 12-man roster that could compete for a USBL championship right now!
  18. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    This post belongs in the Hall Of Fame.......OMG I can't stop laughing at this one!
  19. 2Tough4You

    2Tough4You Bench Warmer

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    No, we know that Dumars basically bid against himself when it came to Gordon. I mean, no other offer (reported) was even close to Dumars'.

    Free agents go where the money is. Joe offered Ben and CV the most dough. That, I am certain of.
  20. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I'm a Joe D supporter BIG TIME! But he really ticked me off by not getting Al Jefferson or having the ability to move up in the draft and get Cousins.

    It's funny many of you think getting a Big Man is easy, it isn't, it's damn near impossible. The only way to snag one is (1)Draft him, i.e. Noah, Howard, Bynum, etc etc (2)Trade for him, that's how we got Sheed. For a big to become available via trade you are going to have to assume some sort of risk. He's either got to be a perceived cancer (like Sheed was when we got him, and Zac Randolph), or they need to feel as if the player is washed up. When Jefferson became available it was Joe's job to POUNCE!!!! AJ had a very reasonable contract and all it took was a trade exception and exception we could easily have had if Joe would realize that GIVING Rip away is a necessary move needed to drive this team forward.

    But Joe did try and nab Tyson Chandler and struck out, apparently Charlotte wanted cap relief, so they traded him for a guy who they released before training camp. Again had Joe GIVEN Rip away (to Sac or Clev) we could have nabbed Chandler for a trade exception or a draft pick, a whole lot more than what they ended up getting for him.

    He's off his game- PERIOD! he either needs to make a risky move, or blow it up, we have about $35 Million in salary on this team that won't help us win in the future.

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