Did Tay, Sheed, Rip & CB Hide Ben W's Weaknesses/Will he Exposed in Chicago

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by armygirl, Jul 14, 2006.

  1. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Since I now have more time to seriously contemplate Ben's leaving the Pistons, I can now really concentrate on what a lot of people are saying about the pros & cons of his loss. Here are 4 questions that I pose.

    1. I read that Ben's weaknesses would be exposed in Chicago because he did not have the 3.5 all-stars surrounding him.

    2. Volatile & explosive manner of Scott Skiles

    3. The Bulls are a very young team. From my perspective, the Bulls spent a lot of time on the perimeter, with the exception of Sweetney not too much scoring in the paint.

    4. How will the aggressive/defensive play of Ben translate into the new offensive minded NBA

    Since being away, I was able to do a lot of reading and listening to sportscasters around the globe. The one significant theme that consistently was repeated over and over again was Ben missing the play of his fellow pistons.
     
  2. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    They must be reffering to the 2004 version of the Pistons.
     
  3. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    To the contrary, Ben will be more effective with superior perimeter defenders on his team.
    Will be a breath of fresh air.
    That's hardly something Ben's unfamiliar with.
    Ben being in foul trouble has never been an issue. The new interpretations have to do with perimeter defense (see 1). Ben won't be as impressive as he was in 2002-2004, but that will be more because he's lost a step than because the rules are effecting him.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    HELLOOOOOOOO???? IS THIS THING ON???

    Ben might be playing PF with PJ Brown at Center. At PF, he might easily be worth his $15 million. His #'s drop came when he had to go into every battle outsized and with limited space to work.

    I love the Pistons, but Tay, Sheed, Rip and CB's best defense has been funneling their man to Wallace. Playing a side to allow Ben to cheat as a deterrent against penetration. CB is about as great a defender as Damon Jones, and Tay is too slow on the perimeter to be an effective iso defender. His length is everything.

    Rip is the only hard nosed perimeter defender of the All-Star Pistons. Sheed is absolutely unable to recover once he is beat. For an athletic big man, he's notoriously slow.

    As a unit, these fellas worked well together. Without the big dog, it will be interesting to see who makes the All-Defense teams next year.
     
  5. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    The group that will be exposed is the reamining Pistons players who always had someone to rely on when they failed defensively.

    Your 2006/2007 Detroti Pistons: "Makin Posters with the Stars!"

    ...call today for tickets!
     
  6. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    For 82 games, everybody's spouting the gospel of great chemistry and limited teammates overcoming individual weaknesses. Suddenly things don't go our way and The Chicken Little Society wants to make Ben the guy who propped up a bunch of bums.

    Sorry, no.

    * I remember the team that lost to New Jersey, with a mediocre post player like Kenyon Martin shooting over Ben at will.

    * I remember the dogfights in Indiana, when Ben was so hard pressed to stop Jermaine O'Neal and his baseline jumper that guys like Jeff Foster were killing us.

    Recent fashion around here is to blame Rasheed for ... well, everything that Flip's not being blamed for. But Rasheed made life a lot easier by playing the big, athletic players that could shoot right over Ben. We have a championship because of it, and you can't wave it away.

    Will Ty Thomas be that kind of player in Chicago? Not yet, in all likelihood. Maybe someday. So while Ben may have better perimeter defenders in Chicago, he's not walking into a perfect situation. Especially since he may not find as many opportunities to free lance in Skiles' system. (Does Scott Skiles seem like a free lance kind of guy to YOU?)

    I think Ben will do well. Not incredible, but well.

    And believe it or not, so will Detroit. Because having Ben Wallace as a crutch wasn't working anymore anyway. So each of the Pistons will have to step up and do more than they're used to. They're eminently capable of that--and now they have no choice.
     
  7. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    On this point, it will be interesting to see what Mohammad brings to the table defensively and how he works with the other guys. Pretty much what I have heard is that he doesn't rotate to the weak side well and often finds himself in the wrong spot. Maybe trying to fill Ben's shoes (figuratively speaking), he'll right his defensive ship.

    Frankly, I see a lot less emphasis on defense next season. It's just not in Flip's nature. Need a strong assistant in there to get after these guys to keep doing it on the defensive end.
     
  8. max

    max All-Star

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    Thats one thing that can never be stated enough. For the 1st 4 years of his 6 years in Detroit he played PF on the court and Center on the all-star ballots. Ben was not switched to play true center until the Sheed trade and even then we still had Okur and Camb to battle the bigs that year.

    I would think that by now some Einstein would have put 2 and 2 together and realized that Bens numbers started slipping when he started playing center but this small realization seems to be limited to Piston fan sites.

    Only problem - PJ Brown will be turning 38 this Oct and has always been a poor mans Center at best. So they may continue to play Ben in the middle.

    They should have stuck with Chandler. They would not have scored much but how could you rebound against a Chandler/Wallace front line? They would have grabbed so many offensive boards that it would have made up for any lack of scoring. This could be one move that they regret.

    On our team Ben did make everyone else better. Its scary to see how the entire team slipped in the post-season once Ben did. As Ben went so did the rest of the team.

    Flip seems to think that Dyess is ready for more PT and can return to playing more like the all-star he once was ( WDFN int, avail on M-live ) So we will see. Personally I think Dyess has lost about 30% of his game, still effective but I cannot ever see him fully returning to what he was.

    We should actually still be better than the Bulls and win around 50. But we will need a small miracle to bring home the title. Maxiel, Johnson or someone is really going to have to step up - that is if Flip plays them. You typically actually have to play a guy if you want them to get better and contribute.
     
  9. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    That's what i kept saying when i was talking to people about this. PJ Brown is an excellent low post defender, and if Ben ends up playing PF again, it's going to be like it's 2004 all over again . . .

    Except he's not going to be on our team! :mad:

    Also sorta OT, but this Flip quote, "Well, I'm not suprised Ben left. You gotta to think about the future when you have to re-sign a top 5 player" made me so mad.

    Does he think that Chauncey Billups is Allen Iverson or something?
     
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I resent that. The sky is not falling. It just dropped down a few thousand feet onto the broad shoulders of Nazr Mohammed. Let's hope he's the second coming of Atlas and can still run the break with that load.

    :rofl:
     
  11. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    The hoopshype article says some of the same things that Armygirl mentioned:




    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ben Wallace will find out early how much Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince meant to him and how they hid his deficiencies. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He was protected to the max in that lineup with the multitude of offensive players surrounding him. Now he has a young inconsistent team with a volatile coach in Scott Skiles to protect his weaknesses every night.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I know Pistons coach Flip Saunders can’t wait to see those weaknesses exploited, thus proving to everyone why he couldn’t play Wallace consistently against certain teams down the stretch of the season and during the playoffs.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Understand I am not a Wallace-basher. I think he is one of the hardest workers in the league, but there is a reason why... He has no choice. If Wallace didn’t work hard, he would be out the league. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He can’t shoot from outside three feet, he has no post moves, he is an adequate passer at best and he is a horrible free-throw shooter. Wallace's attributes are great weak-side defense and tenacious rebounding. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But understand this warning... If Tyrus Thomas can’t defend the ball in the post like Rasheed did in Detroit allowing Wallace to roam, then he will likely be inconsistent and stay in foul trouble – in the end, not paying the dividends they are expecting.[/FONT]

    (http://hoopshype.com/columns/wallace_johnson.htm
     
  12. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Ben is going to play power forward again? like in 2000 what?

    Are we talking about the days when Carlisles frontline basically consisted of the three man rotation of Cliff Robinson, Corliss Williamson, and Ben Wallace?

    This is when Ben was supposedly the power forward of the group?

    Maybe he was the power Froward, but that's about it. I'm not going to go as far as Lanierfan and call anyone Chicken Little, but there is no doubt in my mind that Ben has been built up to be better than he actually is..Currently.

    In the long run time will tell the answer to this, I am quite certain though that things are not going to turn out the way Ben thinks they are going to turn out.

    He's going to end up wishing he had never left. Watch. :nod:
     
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    Flip is going to tell you want you want to hear. Can C carry a team like AI? No. Of course not but you would be hard pressed to find a guy like C capable of giving you 30 points and/or a dozen assists on any given night.

    PJ Brown has never avg in double digits for his entire career. Last season he was down to 6.7 PPG in 35 mins of play.
     
  14. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I think he's extremely valuable too. I just don't see him as this Max contract player Flip seems to think he is. I haven't liked his game much since the MVP hype went to his head. I miss the Chauncey of old, the one who didn't chuck 3-pointers with 12 sec left on the clock; who actually attempted to drive to the basket.

    Don't get me wrong, i still think he's one the elite PG in the league. Maybe it's Flip's system i'm most frustrated with. Flip & Chauncey together is a bad mix.

    I only watched a handful of NOK games last year, but i remember thinking he was a good defender. Positions aside, the whole knock was that Ben needed a great post defender like Sheed alongside him so that he was able to play the way he did. PJ Brown seems like he would provide that.

    I never realized his PPG was that low. But aren't the Bulls use to not really getting point production from their center and PF anway? I can't remember who started at PF for them last year ??
     
  15. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I think it's the opposite- Ben helped the rest of the guys to hide their weaknesses. CB, Rip or Tay could let their opponents pass because they knew Ben would sky for the block. But looking back, it didn't help- I'm sure Ben lost some of his jumping ability and he'll block fewer and fewer shots.
     
  16. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i'm taking a wait-and-see approach. i think ben helped our guys look better and i think they helped him look better too.
     
  17. easybuckets

    easybuckets First Round Draft Pick

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    i Think The Bulls Are Not Going To Cater To Ben's Complaining Like We Did Here. Wonder How He Will Act Towards The Coach Now That He Has Got The Last Big Contract.. After Reading That He Fought With All 3 Coaches Here, Will He Give Stiles A Hard Time?... Hope So..
     
  18. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    I think this is a bigtime lose lose situation. The only one who wins here is Ben and he doesn't even fully win. Ben will get his money so that's a win. He'll probably have better stats, but does that matter?

    To me it's all about the wins and Ben won't get these Bulls to the level our Pistons were at. Our team won't be good defensively as it used to be which is a big time loss, and Ben will be exposed. Yes I said it. The Bulls won't be able to score unless a miracle happens and Ben makes his free throws. If the Bulls start off slow like they have the last 2 seasons I see a lot of blame going at Ben, and I don't think he can handle it.
     
  19. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Boy...the reality of this is going to hit the faithful like a ton of bricks. I said it would not be a good idea when Flip was brought in and he killed our defense. I'm saying the loss of Ben will expose this team's defensive lapses even more and it will not be pretty around here when people actually realize it's true.

    Hate me if you wanna, but remember me when you're cursing at your TV while other teams are making highlight reels against us (in case you forgot...go google the game in Denver this season...and get used to it).
     
  20. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    He won't have complaints because he'll actually be playing for a coach who cares about defense.

    The constant stating that Ben hasn't gotten along with any of his coaches is false and revisionist history. Ben has had two major problems here. Rick Carlisle and Flip Saunders. The Cola refused to allow Ben to be part of the offensive flow and basically told him, "Go stand over there."

    Flip basically feels, "Well, you can't score so your aren't as important as the rest of these guys....oh, and go stand over there."

    I guess it makes it easier for people to sleep at night if they paint Ben as a malcontent, but it's simply not true. The only people who had a major gripe with LB was Billups, Arroyo, Delfino, and YKW. However, no one seems to remember that. Chauncey wanted the freedom to jack up shots and LB wouldn't give it to him.

    So, with LB gone the thought was that Billups would now launch away. Well, Chauncey couldn't well do that and still be right about LB keeping the shackles on. So, he played a decent 1st half of the year doing most of the things that LB taught him to do. He had a great 1st half and all the MVP talk started so Chauncey thought he had it all figured out. So having "figured it all out," Chauncey proceedes to take the entire first half of all games off and decides he'll turn it on in the 2nd half, where he proceeded to "launch away". Chauncey was happy to see LB gone...Ben's response was, "We'll see."

    Well, we saw and I don't like what the big screen was showing me. So some peole might be happy with going from getting to the Finals to getting bounced in the ECF. I am not.

    Write it down, but without Ben, they won't even get to the ECF this season. Maybe some of you will be happy with that because, of course, "we'll be better offensively". I will not.
     

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