Away Denver Nuggets Tuesday Nov 6 2012

Discussion in 'November 2012' started by roscoe36, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Legit stuff. Very few easy put backs. He got tons of resistance as you can see from the 4 times his shot was blocked (he was blocked on 40% of his misses and 20% of his overall attempts). Still managed to shoot 50% and was an impressive 7-7 from the FT line. Also the game's leader in rebs and he managed to block 3 shots himself. Overall, his best showing this year. And only -1 in 35 minutes. So the pistons were -11 in the other 13 minutes of the game.

    Both Knight and Bynum had the same game. BK was 1-6 shooting with 9 assists and WB was 1-5 shooting with 8 assists. The good news was that they were productive even though they couldn't buy a basket. Notably, Bynum was blocked by McGee about as hard as one can possibly be blocked. It was a running volleyball spike from behind. Knight was also blocked twice and Stuckey thrice. So, our combo guard trio was blocked 7 times (1 in 4 of their FG attempts).

    Stuckey with a massive breakout game , shooting a blazing 29% from the field. Great to have him back!

    In all seriousness though, the story of the game was offensive rebounds. Nuggets = 21. Pistons = 8. 13 extra possessions they picked up right there. They are built around that strength and the ability to run though, so no surprise. We limited their fast breaks overall.

    They also out stole us by 3, out blocked us by 2, and made 4 more 3-pointers than us.

    Stuckey and Monroe combined for 37 FGA and 6 more non official FGA where they were fouled in the act. That's 43 attempts by the 2 guys on the team with the lowest FG percentages this season (i.e. not the best strategy). The other 8 guys all played legitimate minutes and had 41 FGA and 5 unofficial for 46 total.

    Stuckey hit 2 threes, Jerebko softly dropped one in, and Drummond made a fade away 3 when he was forced to take it before the shot clock ran out... looked pretty coordinated actually. And English was a solid 2-2 from deep.

    One other thing that I noticed is that Drummond is doing a lot of pushing and shoving and actually getting away with it. Maybe it's because the refs don't see him as a cocky guy and he's in there with some big established players and they respect his need to be physical... I don't know. When I watch, I'm just really thankful that he doesn't seem to draw a quick whistle.

    A loss is a loss, but at least we gave the give of a W to another needy recipient. Maybe Gores can use it as a write-off.
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  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    As usual with Frank, no attempt was made to win the game. Holes in our defense and lack of flow on offense were simply ignored. I am almost going to change my theme to Frank is blind to Frank simply has losing high on his priority list.

    JJ is be no means a power forward. Tay really isn't starting material anymore. Monroe and JMAX can't clear the boards - and neither can the Drummond & JJ pairing.

    Bynum showed some good stuff, but some real bad stuff too, and his defense is non-existent. We have two point guards, Stuckey and Knight, and for the coach to insist on using a 3rd one who is far less a player than the other two only means losses are ensured.

    Good night for Monroe on the scoring. More promise shown by the hustling Singler and the steady shooting English - but no hint the coach would consider giving them more time out there even if either hit ten straight triples.

    And Drummond. He should still be out there as I write this doing more of those hook shots until the other team finds a way to stop them - rather than have a coach too embarrassed by the young man's success to let him try even one more.
  3. alexa032

    alexa032 Team Captain

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    The final margin isn't indicative of how close this game was through the first 3 quarters, and it was, relative to the last 2 games, much more fun to watch. It's an improvement, and we certainly could have stolen this game from a much better team - if we played a perfect game, and we didn't, so we lost.

    Nice to see Greg Monroe break out of his slump, was 10 for 20 tonight, 27 points and 10 rebounds. But his defense is still as problem, he was forcing a little, and their rebounding as a team must get better. He was more 2011 Monroe on offense tonight, not settling for the outside shot. But again, defense. We got killed inside tonight, and have been getting killed inside the whole season thus far. He does need to stop with the "and one!" after every shot though, he seems to miss every one of those.

    Stuckey showed a pulse, finally. He was Collider tonight, and was finally also getting the calls. My only problem with him, and what has been my problem with him his whole career is his tendency to get the blinders on and do a Kobe inside against 3-4 guys. He still needs to improve the jump shot if he's going to continue to be the SG for this team; it helps the spacing which helps Monroe and Knight as well. But he was better, and the team consequently looked better.

    Tayshaun - I kinda hate him. He was forcing his shot more, and him leading the break is...bad, to say the least. As I said in chat, he tends to stop near the half court line just enough to let the defense catch up, then ends up jacking up a crap shot anyway. His defense was also apathetic.

    Brandon was mostly invisible, and I was quite surprised to see he had 9 assists (4 TOs). He did have some nice passes to Monroe, though. He only took 6 shots, missing 5 (2 were blocked by McGee), only one of which were threes. I saw that he was open a few times at the 3 point line throughout the game, but he never seemed to get the ball. He has to have better balance; and against a team with long shot blockers like Denver, perhaps the long range shot may have been a better option for him. It's a weapon they must utilize, if only to help with the awful spacing they've had so far.

    Max - his rebounding is, and has always been subpar, and his lack of height was a true liability tonight and has been so far this season. The thing I like is he doesn't hesitate on his shots; unlike Tay, JJ and even Stuck, he doesn't pump fake into the defense. Whenever he's been open, he's taken the shot, which is what he's supposed to do. Still, at some point we have to get more size in the SL, and Max is the obvious guy to put on the bench.

    Bynum - blah. I don't like him. But he's played fairly well so far this season. He was ok in the first half, but he looked like old Bynum in the second half, and imo, it was his turnovers that started the deluge that started Denver's game-clinching run that got them up 13. Not all his fault mind you.

    Andre - played well, and should have played more.

    JJ - he can play PF, the "stretch four" if you will, but his best position is still at the 3.

    Kenny English - he's probably my favorite player right now. He's also the better complementary player for Brandon Knight with his range and his movement without the ball.

    Kyle - I like him. He's perhaps never going to be more than a role player, but he's a right place, right time kind of guy, kinda like a Shane Battier (not as good obviously). He can hit the 3, he hustles, and he lets the offense flow more smoothly than Tay does, if only because of his off ball movement and the fact that the ball doesn't stick in his hands half as much.

    Coach Frank - I have said I like this guy, but he is stubborn. Brandon Knight last year got about the same amount of minutes in the first few games as Andre is right now, and if it weren't for the Stuckey groin injury, he probably wouldn't have started as early as he did, and if he thinks Andre isn't ready to start, fair enough, he sees more than we as fans can. But what I don't like about what he's doing right now is that when the other team makes runs, as Denver did tonight, he didn't make adjustments, he didn't call a timeout when the lead was starting to balloon, and he did the same thing not calling a timeout to calm the team down when the Lakers were dunking left and right. His refusal to play Monroe and Drummond together though is a bigger issue; we've lacked size for years now, and Andre provides that, but we're not using that right now. I'm just hoping he adjusts soon, or we're looking at a NJ scenario.

    P.S. Small ball must die. Getting outrebounded consistently is not a recipe for success.
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  4. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It was good to see Villanueva get some burn tonight as well.
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  5. The Panda

    The Panda All-Star Forum Donor

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    Great recaps everyone. I really enjoy reading these!


    Small ball is fine, as long as you have the players to do it. Since we don't have players who are smaller but still chase the boards hard (Rondo, LBJ etc) we need to play size on the inside. Since Drummond can run the floor as well as nearly anyone else, its fine to use him at a minimum.
  6. raxrets

    raxrets Starter

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    Please, don't treat drummond like a solution to everything. It reminds to me "amir johnson hype" from years ago. And please save me from fanmade theories "more minutes=developes faster, etc".

    It's not so black and white, in fact, for this team is quite hard to find WORKING plan B, due to fact - bench is filled from Sauna Experts to players who yet have to experience true "NBA sauna".

    In short, solutions are not so simple as fans imagine - sometimes players fulfill their potential, sometimes not and so far nobody actually knows why.
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  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yea, it was a flashback of Tay escorting LeBron in for the slam.
  8. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Koufos is going to get his points. You can't stop him you can only hope to contain him.
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  9. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree. We see the bench guys appear to play better, but that's because they're playing against other bench guys. Our starters are not all that much better than our bench (if they are better), so that's why it seems like our bench guys make a difference. Drummond is often lost and out of place - he made no effort to get in front of McGee on that jam and he does not position himself well for rebounds. The team is getting blasted on the boards with or without him in the game, so it's not like all of these problems are going to magically go away.

    As far as the "more minutes = develops faster," there's a limit to how much growth a game can cause a player to have. Today the coaches can go to Drummond and explain to him that it's his job to get in the way of McGee and draw that charge, and hopefully he can take that and integrate it into tonight's game - learn, then practice. Getting a few more minutes isn't going to make him any better in the long run because... what is he going to learn? You have to scaffold his learning, which means you have to give that stuff to him in small chunks. If you let him go out and keep playing, keep playing, then all of those game minutes become one big blur where he's just playing on instinct. Playing on instinct is counter-productive, because then you're falling back into your old routines, and those become more ingrained and therefore harder to break.
  10. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    As to the game itself...

    Monroe looked pretty good. He still makes too many turnovers, but that's primarily because he doesn't have great hands. I'm starting to think that he can make a living in the post, but he really needs guys on the floor that are a threat from the outside. Maxiell and Stuckey are not, and that allows other teams to collapse a little farther and defend more effectively. Once Monroe establishes himself as a threat down there, though, you can run some offensive sets through him.

    This team just lacks talent.
  11. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Charlie did have some good seconds at the end of the half. Is he being showcased? He was a little rusty and forgot to run to the other end of the floor after the free throws but other than that he looked confident and poised.
  12. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    ...Playing the Arron Afflalo role from a few years back.
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I actually thought Drummond's decision to not challenge McGee's running dunk was wise beyond his years. That would have at best resulted in 2 free throws. At worst, and and1 and an injury to one of the guys involved. McGee is an active guy on the court these days. Unorthodox, but effective.
  14. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    When the Nugs would get a rebound and look to push the ball their wing players (all their players really) were flying down the court on the break.

    Brandon Knight was pushing the ball up one time and every other Pistons was 3 full strides behind him. They looked like the gang from Fat Albert plodding up the court.

    The Nugs ran a pick and roll out past the elbow area of the 3 pt line with Lawson and Koufas. Monroe briefly showed OK on the pick, but he then he hugged up on Koufas like he was one of greatest 3 pt shooters in the L.
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  15. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Unless the defense is paying attention and they rotate to him earlier (FT line) and not at the point of throw down.
  16. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Starter Forum Donor

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    Given how bad the rebounding and defense is, does it make sense to just go with the Twin Towers (Drummond and Monroe) now in the starting lineup? I am just throwing that out there. I never get a chance to watch the games so this could be way off given what all you seasoned fans have seen.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here is a quote from Grantland re: the Pistons-
    Interesting to think about the spacing challenges... which are exacerbated by having bigs that can't shoot and a SG that can't shoot. Monroe, Maxiell, and Drummond are all "in the paint" guys. Maxiell incredibly has the best range of the bunch and that only extends out to the FT line. Knight is the best shooter, but he's taken out of many of the plays by being the point man. Tay is a solid, but reluctant .350 career 3-point shooter that really does best from the corners.

    In 2011-2012, Tay attempted 75 3's from the 2 corners and 22 from every where else. His accuracy from the corners was really good and his points per shot from there were just about as high as his figures from point blank range in the paint.

    BK's spray chart really is pretty spread out. He shoots from anywhere beyond the arc and has great results in all sectors. Shot Chart - Brandon Knight - 2011-2012 Regular Season | VORPed

    Stuckey.... Shot Chart - Rodney Stuckey - 2011-2012 Regular Season | VORPed He's a paint guy. 332 attempts in the paint and 266 outside.


    Greg Monroe attempted 797 shots in the paint last year and only 131 outside the paint (mostly just outside).

    And Maxiell is surprisingly good from the mid-range when you look at what he did over the course of the season last year. Shot Chart - Jason Maxiell - 2011-2012 Regular Season | VORPed



    This is why a guy like Villanueva is in the league. He's a big guy that shoots about half his shots from the 3-point line (Sheed-like offensively). If Daye has shoot off his push up slump, then this would also be a reason to experiment with him in the lineup.


    As it stands, we are getting collapsed on and we aren't getting many easy baskets inside. Outside, we are just shorthanded.
  18. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I'd rather see Kevin English replace Stuckey and any one of Singler, Middleton and/or Jerebko replace Tay in the lineup.
    Monroe needs to extend his range on offense to beyond 3 feet.

    I like lee's idea of Rodney backing up both guard positions.
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  19. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This was a watchable game, and entertaining despite the feeling that they were never going to get over the hump and the Nuggets were about to turn it on at any moment.
    Far too many mental lapses and mistakes in this one. How you let McGee dribble in from half court and dunk uncontested was just mind-boggling. We were killed on the boards, some were unlucky long rebounds, but a lot were guys like Iguodala and Manimal just outjumping and outworking our guys. Jerebko and Monroe can get outboarded by uber-athletes like these, which is why Drummond needs to play more in games like this.

    It was a fun crowd, pretty tame considering it was their home-opener. Seats were half-filled at the start but got to about 80% by the 2nd quarter. Got to meet Nuggets 90's star LaPhonso Ellis before the game. He was very nice and friendly considering he had to keep standing up every 2 minutes for a photo pose.

    Monroe was solid once more. He was complaining a lot and seemed to be getting hit on a lot of drives, but when you play under the rim, a lot of these calls won't go your way. Knight struggled and didn't look to score much. When he did he got swatted into next year. I thought the 2nd unit gave us a decent boost in the 2nd and helped us stay in the game, but they got man-handled in the 3rd/4th.

    Prince should just retire now. I'd much rather watch Singler right now. Same goes for Maxiell. I prefer watching Jerebko. CV spent the entire warmup shootaround horsing around, playing one-on-one with whoever was in his radius (mostly Daye), trying to make fade-away 3's. I think he knows by now his number won't be getting called.

    I've posted some photos here:
    Pistons-Nuggets - Google Drive

    Also, thought this would make a good 'Caption this'
    [​IMG]
  20. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Y'all keep saying Monroe was solid, and I respectfully disagree with all of you. He was solid on one end of the floor. His defense was atrocious. He may have scored a bunch of points, but that's all meaningless because the Nuggets just had their way in the paint whenever Monroe was in the game. The way Monroe is playing right now, he is no different than CV when we first got him: would score a whole bunch of points but none of it would be worth anything because we can't stop a single thing on the other end.

    Knight's handle is very very sloppy. At the moment, Bynum is the best PG on the roster. Someone has said that Knight is Stuckey 2.0, and I agree with that. He's a slight upgrade over Stuckey because he can shoot a little better. We need to somehow turn Stuckey/Prince/Maggette/JJ/Maxiell/CV into a solid PG and move Knight to the bench as the combo guard off the bench.

    In the 4 games we played so far, our best player at each position (in my totally subjective opinion)

    PG: Bynum
    SG: English
    SF: Singler
    PF: Maxiell
    C: Monroe

    And that is depressing.

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