Away Dallas Mavericks Sunday, January 26, 2014

Discussion in 'January 2014' started by roscoe36, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Maybe he can change his hairstyle to match Singler's. He might make it into the game on a momentary confusion.
     
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  2. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    His dog Hank loves him.

     
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  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Note, your posts, inadvertently, contradicts itself. I think you got the first sentence backwards. Your opinion expressed in all seems to indicate that we are better with Singler on the floor vs. Drummond.

    Here is a nugget I just dug out from the site you posted, thanks by the way. Looks like it will become one of my favorite sites real fast.

    Offensive rebounding. As I have stated, our offensive rebounding suffers when Singler comes in.

    From Dec 11 to present, spanning the last 21 games, here are the facts:

    With Singler on the floor, and Monroe, we get 18.6% of available offensive rebounds.

    Otherwise, when Monroe is on the floor, we get 31.6% of available offensive rebounds.

    With Singler, if Drummond is in, we get 26.9 % of available rebounds.

    Without Singler, and Drummond in, we get 40.7% of available offensive rebounds.

    One of the most important things we do, when we are playing winning hoops, is offensively rebound the ball. Singler stops that, and stops winning hoops from being played by us.

    PS, with Smith, just a bit better without Singler 27.2 vs. 28.2
     
  4. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This Darko Singler debate will dominate every thread until he is traded....
     
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  5. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    This should be on the coach, to be quite honest. He needs to tell the teams which are on the floor how he wants them to play. Teams should only be offensively rebounding the ball aggressively when they have an actual chance at getting the damn rebound. This is one of the reasons we are getting so scorched in transition.

    And everyone keeps talking about non comparisons - why on earth are we comparing the offensive rebound talents of a 7 foot athletic monster and a 6"7' super white SF? Its irrelevant.
     
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  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Over the last 10 games, Detroit is a top 10 rebounding team. It is a bottom 5 shooting team wrt FT, FG and 3PT.

    Rebounding != winning basketball.
     
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  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    (PointsScored - PointsAgainst) == winningBasketball
     
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  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Here is a crazy idea, one that Ernie brought up some time ago. Maybe we crash the offensive boards too much, which prevents us getting setup on defense.

    Maybe this is why Kyle Singler's contributions to offensive rebounding are small, but his off court and on court numbers are quite good.

    Remember, they don't score the game based on rebounds. They score the game based on points.
     
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  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Overall, with singler on the court, we out rebound the opposition on a percentage basis. That counts all rebs, o and d. How big of a problem can that really be?
     
  10. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Yes, its quite relevant when Singler is the guy who rests Drummond, and Monroe, in succession. And Smith too.

    The around 40% offensive rebound rate when Drummond is on the floor without Singler is indeed excellent, and absolutely you should be heavily going for the offensive rebound when you are that successful. What that does is not at all hurt your fast break defense, but rather kills entirely the fast breaks of the other team. Because the other team has to leave all five guys back to fight Drummond for that bound.
     
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    In the last 20 games, Singler has among our worst on / off court numbers. You got to use current reality, what happens into the season when your rotations are somewhat stabalized and everything is scouted. It ain't pretty right now. Our chances against even the worst team in the league, if we are not that team mind you, is low. Its low even though we have a great starting unit. Because our top 8 includes Bynum, who has no clue how to play the point, nor can defend at all - and Singler who is too slow on defense, too small on defense, and has no ups. Neither of these two should be in the game at all, and if not for Stuckey's scoring, both would look truly pathetic in the stats.
     
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Why is our starting unit negative as a group if they are so great?

    What is the margin of error for plus minus with that sample size? 20 games seems tiny when you're breaking out specific combos with a guy that only plays half the minutes.

    Why did it take other teams over 20 games to adjust to singler? Seems like they could have adjusted immediately given his total ineptitude.

    Among the worst still puts him above the guys he's sharing minutes with (bynum, stuckey, dre). Usually the argument would be that he's not so bad because his plus minus are better than his court mates'.
     
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here is how low of a sample size trailing 20 is for +/-:

    Yesterday, the 20 game trailing average per 36 min was -2.9 for KCP and -6.3 for KS (gross was -46 and -90).
    Today, the 20 game trailing average per 36 min is -3.6 for KCP and -4.1 for KS (gross is -56 and -60).

    The gap narrowed from a spread of 44 points to 4 points in one day when they were both in positive territory.
     
  14. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Sabotage by the coach. The starting unit does well, coach pulls it right on schedule rather than ever milk it. If it falters at all, he pulls it, locking in the negatives. Remember, we went on a 30-4 run with our starters last game, and coach pulled our starting unit, never to put them back on the floor.

    In this game, our starters absolutely rocked to end the half. To start the 2nd, he calls a time out and tells them to nonchalantly shoot the ball from the outside. Only when Singler comes in does he have Smith start going inside and scoring.

    As our starting unit was in flux at the beginning of the season, scouting us was not quite as easy. Besides, why pick on Singler when Bynum is such an easy target. In the NO game, Bynum did not play, so Singler was the target of choice, all night long.

    Do not think because Singler had a largely plus game, vs. another struggling opponent, that I think Singler is any better than before. He is going to have to put this kind of effort as far as contributing what little he can to interior D, on a consistent basis, just to get a completely non-flunking grade from me. Remember, CV has had great scoring games for us before, and it did not change my opinion on his D, or the fact he should not be on our team, one bit.
     
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ah, I forgot about the sabotage, the lack of milking, the locking in of the negatives, the ill advised timeouts, and the flux.
     
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  16. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    First off, I think you're interpreting it wrong. There's a difference between offensive rebound rate and offensive rebound opportunities; offensive rebound opportunities include when the Pistons actually have an offensive player fighting for the ball.

    The Pistons get about 16.6 offensive rebounds per 100 possessions with Drummond on/Singler off (this is since Dec. 12th). With both on, that drops to 13.8 per 100 possessions. With Singler on and Drummond on the bench, the Pistons average 14.2 offensive rebounds per 100 possessions.

    At a rate of about 2 possessions per minute, with about a .50 efg, you're looking at a 2-3 point difference in scoring per 48 minutes (or about 1-2 points per game) between Singler and Drummond being on the court, solely counting offensive rebounds. That's not nearly enough to overcome the difference in positional defense that Singler and Drummond offer (Singler is a much better positional and help defender and both the eye test and PPP difference bear that out).

    But more importantly, I'm kinda done with the whole Singler argument. I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other. I've stated my case; Singler is not the reason this team sucks, he actually belongs on the court and is a capable player on the team, and I have yet to see any numbers that in any way substantiate the opinion that "Singler has no business playing in the NBA." You, on the other hand, are claiming that there is a conspiracy, that Cheeks loves Singler, that he wants to give Singler as much playing time as he can give him at the expense of team wins. You claim to watch the film and come away with the conclusion that, when Singler is on the court, he is responsible for the majority of the team's breakdowns and points allowed. You have claimed that the coach has an agenda against winning, that he is telling the team to stop playing effective offensive basketball and to, instead, "nonchalantly shoot the ball from outside." Your leecaps, which were once wonderful reads and vital pieces of writing in this forum, have degenerated into your little one-man crusades for and against players (Bynum, Middleton, JJ, Singler, etc.) and for and against personal beliefs (i.e. coaches intentionally trying to lose) that make absolutely no rational sense.

    And this Singler thing is starting to dominate the board. Other posters are seeing it, and I'm sick of being involved in such a ridiculous, petty argument. So I'm done talking about it, just as I would be done arguing with a flat-earth society member, a birther, or a Klan member. I've worked in adult psych wards, and sometimes, you just have to let people believe what they're going to believe because trying to argue with them only makes them hold onto their beliefs even stronger. There's no listening to reason on your side, not when you're blasting out such utter nonsense in an attempt to rationalize your beliefs.

    So don't interpret my silence in the matter as acquiescence. You're wrong. If Singler starts to play worse, if he starts to ACTUALLY be the cause of the team sucking (rather than the poor shot selection, the terrible offensive flow, the egregious free throw shooting, and the atrocious perimeter defense on the part of the guards), then I'll step in and admit I was wrong. But just know that my silence = a personal belief that you've gone completely off the deep end of this debate, and I believe that every other poster here, every player on that team and member of that organization, and every media member that watches the Pistons at all agree that Singler is a capable professional basketball player, but that has no stopped you, and I don't expect that, at this point, any amount of sane, logical evidence that either I or any other poster here could present could possibly convince you otherwise. It's not fair to the other members here to have to drag them through this day after day when they're already suffering through the most disappointing Pistons season in recent memory.

    So let's just move on, and talk about something else.
     
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  17. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Like we use to say in the 70's, RIGHT ON:clap2:
     
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  18. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    As always, you choose what you talk about. There are tons of stuff from this game you could choose to talk about other than Singler. For me, I will talk about what I think is important, and lately, that is why we are losing games. And as you know, the reason I think we are losing games is that Singler and Bynum are getting minutes out there. In the Orlando game, Bynum had someone he could guard, someone as small as him, Nelson. Singler did not hurt us that bad since Orlando is a very poor team with very few scoring options. But this is Orlando. Next loss, if its Singler and Bynum getting scored on, I will be sure to mention it again. I do not make this stuff up, nor do I want to say the same thing game after game. I can only write what happens, and if the same thing happens game after game, that is what I will write.

    As for Singler's positioning, its quite irrelevant when in some games, wherever he goes he is inadequate in size to do anything. And how is positioning got to do with him trying to guard Carter? Or guarding Dirk. He just can not do such things, not in any credible way at all. And if he is out on any NBA guard, that guard can easily get by him unless our whole team is backing him up. This backing him up ends up scrambling our defense, and results in the other team scoring.

    In this game, Singler was able to use his height to bother Afflalo's shot, and the team had his back so Afflalo could not drive past him. No problem since Orlando has so few scoring threats that you can concentrate more on Afflalo. Indeed, I watch all of Afflalo's games, and some teams go so far as double teaming Afflalo even when he does not have the ball, forcing Orlando to try to win some other way besides Afflalo. Now, this has benefitted the team to an extent, meaning more shot attempts for the other guys, and getting them better for the in game practice. Olidipo for instance has some tremendous scoring games. That is a story from this game. Stuckey guarded Olidipo very effectively in this game and made him look like the rookie he is.

    Back to Singler's positioning. Something I watch very carefully. I have seen whole halves where he positions well, and actually makes right choices as to what to do from that positioning. And I have seen him whole halves consistently out of position, or choosing not to help out inside on drives in - when in position to do so, or deciding not to participate on interior D at all even though he is there at the hoop. Failure to participate, despite his positioning, is one of my biggest gripes about him, other than often being too slight in build to actually help in other cases. But hey, you got to do your best, if you are put in a position where you are expected to help. In this Orlando game, Singler had good positioning, and made good decision on when to help out from that positioning. Not initially, not the first several minutes he was in. But he got his game together after that and ended up with a pretty good game.

    If Singler continues to opt in on a consistent basis, his negative reviews from me will diminish. But not go away altogether as he will never be adequate a player to be in there in many situations. If the coach were to limit his minutes some more, like not ever having put him on Dirk nor Carter a couple games back, my negative reviews would decrease even more. And never putting him on a guard that can blow by him in a blink of an eye so our defense can not respond.

    Finally, if the coach would actually give other players a chance at his minutes, to see what they could do, there would be no argument. If Singler could actually beat out other players for the mintues, what could I say. He has not. JJ for instance, when allowed to play, looks real good out there. Why has he not been given a good stretch to see what he can do in place of Singler. Or Mitchell, who could definitely add rebounds and interior D to the team if we added him in. Heck, I say even give Datome a shot for a while. You just can't put them all in at once and expect anything. Singler would have to actually sit out some games to give the other guys a real shot at small forward minutes.

    And finally, over and over again, when we use Harrellson as a key guy in our rotation, we win. In contrast, leaving him out, and expecting Singler to rest all of Smith, Drummond, and Monroe, is never working. Harrellson shoud be given a solid look as one of our core 8 guys. Which again, would mean Singler sits out some games.

    Lets get this all in order. I know its kind of late. I believe all of this should have been done long ago, but its not too late. I believe, with our best our there - which I do not believe is out there at the moment, we can go on a very long winning streak. This team is a lot better than what it has shown. That is my opinion. Feel free to share yours, or not. PS, I do not keep track at all who writes what these days. I just respond to what is written in a post. Have a nice day.
     
  19. J-Train

    J-Train Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Laimbrane, I don't know why you're surprised. Nearly every Leecap has been the exact same piece of writing for close to 15 years. Just insert new whipping boy and new clueless coach with an agenda against winning. Every Pistons team for the last 15 years would win 65 games and win a championship if only the Clueless Coach would stop playing Player X for 20 minutes and play Random D-League Player instead.

    Same irrational, insane, bullsh*t drivel. Different decade.
     
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  20. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    I find this whole argument interesting because I agree with the core tenants of what Lee says, namely
    - Singler is not an NBA level starting SF, has inconsistent performances
    - Mo Cheeks is a bad coach. His rotations are strange, at best, and downright pathetic at times.
    - Will Bynum has played himself out of the rotation but still gets minutes.

    But while I agree with these three very basic summaries of what is said, I don't agree with the extent of of the damage as assessed by Lee, and I certainly understand and agree with the arguments put forward by members like TaS and Laimbraine.

    I'm not going to write up a big soap opera about it, but at the heart of my opinion is that Basketball is a team sport. So when Singler gets beaten by the person he is guarding, it is on the team to help out. We have all seen people blow past Singler. It's not like it never happens. But why are we so angry at Singler if Monroe is too far away to help because Big Baby Davis is doing his best catch and shoot stance 20 feet from the ring and he has wandered off to guard him like a premier wing stopper trying to slow down Kobe on a roll. Defense is never one on one, it is all about systems at this level. Having watched Singler play, not as extensively as you guys, I can say that his reaction time/speed/movement against ball handlers isn't the best in the league. But I'll be damned if his positioning isn't fantastic. He is always horizontal, has his arms out and is a half step back from the rock. The reason his stats are so good is because he has great fundamentals and can funnel opposing players into help. Does this mean he is a better defender than Lebron? Of course not. But he certainly isn't blowing up the team. Cheeks on the other hand...

    And I would just like to point out that we are arguing about a guy that gets maybe 3mpg at PF and 20mpg at SF. The guy who plays the other 28mpg at SF is shooting as many 3's a game as Dirk Nowitzki and hitting them at a 24% clip. Brandon Jennings is chucking up 15 shots a game with a FG% of 38% for 16ppg. For comparison, Lebron James shoots 16 shots a game and scores 26. Greg Monroe has fallen off a cliff.

    For me, the lone bright spot has been KCP starting and Stuckey's yearly run off good play, which considering his last few games has almost certainly ended indefinitely.
     
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