Dallas Jan. 23rd, 7:00 PM

Discussion in 'January 2009' started by Dlev59, Jan 19, 2009.

  1. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Nice post. Just to be clear about my own position: I am happy about the trade. I am happy about the change in the starting line-up. I am happy when I see a effort and energy and enthusiasm (and unhappy, now as over the past six years) when I don't. And I am unhappy when I see a coach use a line-up that -- as TaS and everyone else has documented thoroughly -- is at best ineffective and at worst puts us in a hole.

    And I am unhappy when I see fans who seem only to be happy when they are unhappy (the exception to this last rule, interestingly, is The Low: the joy he takes in being unhappy is truly infectious -- it somehow makes me happy. Thanks Low).
  2. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    But if that is Curry's rationale, why doesn't he say so in his post-game comments or in other interviews with the media? Part of being a successful NBA coach is being able to "sell" or at least explain what you are doing in a convincing way in your interactions with the media. Curry's post-game comments do not inspire a lot of confidence in this regard. During the 5-game skid, I read somewhere that he complained about his starting lineup being badly outrebounded in one of the losses. His comments suggested that he saw no connection between his heavy reliance on SB in that game and the winning team's rebounding advantage.
  3. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    So you want him to trash the usefulness of our entire frontline in order to justify his decisions to us?

    Even first year coaches of lottery teams rarely do that.

    The media doesn't cut his check. Joe does. He only needs two men to follow his rationale in order to be assured of continued tenure as Pistons coach.

    I'm not sure why you are very concerned with his post game comments.
    Personally, his comments could go on to win him a nobel prize and I still wouldn't feel good about them if the team were losing.

    It is possible that these comments were made because Curry feels that effort is lacking more than size.

    I've made it pretty clear how I view this whole big ball/small ball business.

    I fail to see how a lineup of Dice/Max/Tay/Allen/Stucky is "Big Ball" but a lineup of Rasheed/Tay/Rip/Iverson/Stuckey is smallball.

    The first lineup (the "big" one) is 2 inches shorter.

    Replace Max with Amir in the first lineup, and both lineups are the same height, while the subjectively "big" lineup only weighs 30 pounds more collectively.

    Thats 6 pounds per player (with the same collective height mind you), and it's predominantly felt at the 5 (Rasheed for Dice= 15 lbs) and 3 (Rip for Tay= 22 lbs). Hardly enough difference for the gentlemen in row CC to put their hands to their heads and faint into their wives open arms because "OMG, they're playing smallball!"

    But that's what is happening. Curry sees the falsity of it all. He knows how much of what is lacking is effort. I'd rather see my coach demand what is attainable rather than take the easy way out and play relative stiffs only for fan-perceived size and ability.

    Saying they are just too small is saying it's beyond their control. I don't buy that. Kudos to MC for demanding something more.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Cloud,

    Yes, all threads here are archived, including the game threads.

    http://www.pistonsforum.com/pistons-archive/

    I want to believe Curry is doing what Daddy Rich would do. Play guys so that the GM could obviously see, beyond a shadow of a doubt, who should stay and who should go.
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Oh, and I agree with the Loyalist.

    Curry is a total buffoon when it comes to dealing with the media. If he's going to fib, make it believable, not something which is easily disproven by his own actions.
  6. OLD SKOOL HQ

    OLD SKOOL HQ All-Star

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    Curry was a part of the Pistons FAILED years and yet you all didnt see this coming??

    There are certain times of the year when its important to bring your A-GAME!!

    That was a refund-game performance.
  7. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    Cloud, it would not require that much rhetorical skill for a coach to articulate your rationale (about the need to use Tay in place of Max and Amir for offensive production) without "trashing" Max and Amir. How about, "I need to give Tay a lot of minutes in the front line, because right now I am getting more offensive production from him than others in that spot, especially against certain lineups." As to your second point, the media is the conduit by which the coach reaches the fans, and isn't the customer ultimately the king in any business, including professional sports? If you are saying that fan perceptions (which are shaped heavily by media reports and interviews) don't matter, then I can't agree with you. Your third point -- that, if Curry were masterful in his press conferences, it would not make us feel any better about losing -- is probably true when a team is performing to its potential (i.e., when the coach is getting the maximum out of his players). But I think that when a team is underperforming relative to its capabilities, as I believe the Pistons are -- and when the coach's decisions about lineups have generated a lot of criticism -- then a coach who cannot or will not explain what he doing and why makes us feel worse about losing.
  8. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    actually HQ, i wish i could get a refund for going there last night. when the 3rd quarter ended a bunch of people left and i sat slumped in my chair relaxing for the rest of the game because it was obviously over. although this game i actually did notice the crowd giving a huge cheer to rip when he first entered the game...but it was nothing compared to the ovation that herrmann got lol. he's a crowd favorite.

    this team is still a work in progress people. did you expect a switch to a big lineup and we'd never lose again? that we'd blow out everyone and walk away with the title? dallas got MURDERED by milwaukee 2 nights earlier...this game meant a lot more to them and they treated it like game 7 of the finals. i'm amazed by the hyperbole and how much people extrapolate single games into team-defining axioms.

    the team is going to be a work in progress all season. i remember so many people saying they'd rather go .500 and experiment all year with a low seed than watch the same old pistons and know they would flake out by game 6 of the ECF. well guess what, you got your wish, so what are you complaining about? we've been experimenting all year. curry is a rookie coach and he's going to make mistakes just like our players.

    onto the game - it was clearly lost in the 2nd quarter by curry's coaching mistake of letting tay guard dirk. it was like tay vs. duncan in game 7 of the finals against the spurs (and guess what, HOF coach larry brown made the same mistake in a game that literally meant EVERYTHING). max was destroying dirk and taken out for no good reason...and once dallas went on that run our players got frustrated and took the rest of the night off. here's what curry had to say about it:

    there you go. he tried something (albeit for a stupid reason imo), but stated he made a mistake and would keep a big in there next time. that gives me a lot more hope going forward than if he would've said something else.

    if anything people are complaining about the wrong people. will bynum? guess what, he shot over 50% and had more assists than anyone on our team. our bench outscored our starters 47-44 in fewer minutes. do you know who sucked tonight? stuckey and sheed. and if your PG and C are struggling, you're in for a long night. sheed didn't bring it, plain and simple. i don't know if he's still injured or bored or what, but his play was inexcusable tonight.

    and hey, i love stuckey's game but he didn't have it tonight. he wasn't getting to the line with SB but this was the first time he didn't get to the line with BB (although he should've on that horrible offensive foul call). you have to remember he went through stretches like this last year, he'd have several good games and then would have several where he would struggle. he's barely a 2nd year player and you're going to have to live with the fact that he's not going to be stellar every night. it's an ongoing process and we ARE going to lose some regular season games because of it.

    cloud brings up good points about our bigs. it would be *great* to have a finishing big to go with stuckey and AI, but we currently do not have that. teams can still collapse the paint because we don't have anyone with a solid post game. we need that and could also use a good spot-up 3-point shooter (AA could work for now).

    the only thing that made the night enjoyable was a girl at the end of the game, who inexplicably had something along the lines of FFs and a V-cut shirt to purposely show them off. i dunno how she held them up or how she could find shirts to support them. she was about halfway up the lower bowl and at the end of the game was turned facing upward, and it was rather amazing just how many men decided to stick around for awhile! even their wives/girlfriends couldn't help but stare. see roscoe...that's what i get for not bringing my camera!! LOL

    in short, i'm not throwing the season away over this one game, and neither should you.
  9. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I think he articulates this about as simply as one can when he ensures that a DNPCD is next to their name in a boxscore.

    There is really no need for him to elaborate any further for the sheer benefit of us or the media.

    I still don't see it the way most of you other folks see it.

    All I see is fans groping for a reason Curry doesn't play lineups the way we want him to play them, followed by multiple variations of "what is that moron thinking? Doesn't he know he's supposed to follow our directions?"
  10. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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  11. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Ultimately the customer isn't going to be satisfied unless we achieve playoff success. If this does happen, the fans aren't really going to remember/care whether or not MC sounded like Samuel Clemens during his post game pressers.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Not sure I agree with that. Part of his job is media relations and answering for what happened in the game, and what he was able to do, or not able to do to achieve a better result.

    Accountability to the fans through the media is part of this. Yes, he is accountable to Joe, who is accountable to Mr. D who accounts by his wallet, but as we've seen with the Fords, if the only way of determining success and customer satisfaction is revenue, then wins-losses, quality, standards, and accountability do not matter.

    And I think you would agree, they do matter because the profitability of Ford or Davidson, ultimately provides little positive stimulus to the fan. Losing ugly will scrape the heroism from your soul.

    I see your point, and I see PL's point. You're not concerned at all about aesthetics. But it is a little deeper than that. The team played like crap and Curry hasn't been able to get many great performances from them this year. When they win, it's more a product of getting hot, than any strategic assignment or plan.

    More worrisome for me, is not the lineups or the minutes, but that Curry doesn't seem able to lead his men anywhere. I am no fan of Flip, but Flip + Terry Porter > Curry and Darrel Walker to the power of infinity.
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I love it.

    This team goes on an 8 game win streak and we'll be back to discussing whether games matter enough to be considered "must win".

    Until then hide the buckets and lock the cabinets folks.....
  14. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    Cloud, I hope Curry has done a better job of privately explaining his DNP decisions during the course of this season to Amir, Max, Kwame and others than he has to the media, because otherwise the affected players will be as mystified as we are by many of these decisions.
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I think we are treading a thin line between MC being forthright and MC telling people what they want to hear.

    I've listened to his post game comments immediately after games and found them lacking somewhat; however, I've also listened to the same comments 5 games later and felt that what he said previously made more sense to me.

    I think Curry has a clear and firm vision of what he wants from this team. Unfortunately, I think this vision is compromised when he's forced to adjust his goals to compensate for 2 sheriffs in the backcourt flanked by his best big, who coincidentally wants to be a shooting guard as well.

    Mike's defensive system thrives on utility men, yet he seems to be saddled with a few of the most inconsistent utility men in the league. Things would be easier if Rasheed were to fall in line, but honestly, how much of a 180 should we expect from a 10+ year vet who may have already decided this is his last year in the league? Last time he was supposed to jump center...he didn't. That's how motivated Sheed is. That's Curry's fault. It's also Joe's. Personally I'm starting to wonder if Richard and Rasheed overcomplicate an uncomplicated system to the point of collapse.

    He could just not play them.
    Or could he?

    If he explained his decision to the media, would they buy it, or just label him a moron?

    Plus, we both know sending either of them to permanent pine would only increase the chances that the primary in a trade involving one of them was a bag of Frito Lays.

    I'm going to wait and see if Joe pulls the trigger, and consequently see what Mike does after the trading deadline before I even attempt to delve too deeply into judging his coaching decisions.
    I feel that there are too many hidden variables that haven't been eliminated yet for me to make a sound decision one way or another.
  16. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    He could always use Carlisle's "They didn't play with force."

    I would hope that when Amir fouls out in 8 minutes yet still manages to give up 5 offensive rebounds, or Maxey plays 30 minutes without a single board, or Kwame is caught picking his nose with his fist...that no explanation is needed.
  17. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Ahhh...when the games going bad you can always look for "entertainment" in the crowd.

    I remember in the early days of league pass the wkbd feed would come back early on Blaha and Laimbeer as they joined forces with the camera operators searching the crowd for ...interesting sights.

    It was funny. I miss that. I wonder if George and Greg are still hawking during commercials.
  18. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    You just don't listen do you? Again you are so stuck with your thoughts that even some of the most obvious facts slip by you.

    It has a lot to do with Flip. As far as I know we have had 4 changes on this team. Flip was replaced, AI is here instead of Chauncey, we picked up Kwame Brown, and we drafted Walter Sharpe.

    Can we agree that Sharpe has little to no significance to the current state of the team?

    Kwame is the 4th or 5th big so can we also agree that he has not made that big of a change?

    That leaves 2 changes. Chauncey and Flip being replaced. Are you telling me that none this has to do with Flip and that all of this has to do with Chauncey? Get over it. Chauncey is barely an all star, his Finals MVP could of went to any of the Pistons that year because it was a total team effort, he never truly was in MVP consideration, and at the end of the day he was a Piston who was just as important as Rip, Big Ben, Tay, and Sheed because this team was not built around one player.
  19. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I'm officially encouraged by this:

    Don't expect a big Pistons trade | detnews.com | The Detroit News

    The same info that has Chris saying "No Trade" has Hoopsworld saying "Dumars not done yet".

    It's one of those times where McCosky has decided to render an opinion. Considering how those times turn out I'm now fully expecting a trade.
  20. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    That article made me feel worse. All it said was don't expect a trade because the team is already having bad chemistry and to top it off it talks about Sheed already being worn down.

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