Cleveland Cavs Feb. 1st, 2:30 PM

Discussion in 'February 2009' started by Dlev59, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    The ball never crossed the 3 point line on the Pistons opening possession until there were less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I suppose CLE could have been very well prepared on that play and defended it well, but I don't think that was the case.

    What's the point of playing Sheed the whole first quarter if he's going to get 3 shots?

    It doesn't matter at this point, but they should sub Max and Amir in for each other every 5-6 minutes.

    I love how they're playing Sheed, Tay et al 41 minutes in the throw away year. That's going to pay off down the road.

    Some home stand, huh?
  2. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    The thing about that is because Curry is either too stubborn, dumb, or whatever you want to call it he would probably stick with Rip on the bench until the middle of March before he would actually change the lineup again if it werent working.
  3. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    The team simply has not shown it can sustain a defensive and offensive cohesion for a full game. Cleveland was outplayed. But that 4th quarter AI (who was playing well) had back to back defensive lapses on Gibson and suddenly it is a 3 point game. The problems are not due to lack of effort. Echoing Lee, I, too, would have played either Maxiel and Afflalo to start the 4th but AI was on a roll. Leaving the Cavs only scorer open was mind boggling. And it is not just AI who had a very good game otherwise. And, don't think there is a magic rotation with this group. They simply cannot sustain a cohesiveness on either end. Never new how much that meant in the Billips/Larry Brown era.

    Another point, notice how the Cavs put the Pistons away: 3 balls and jumpers. That is the way the top teams compete. The Pistons have almost no three ball threat post Billips.
  4. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    I realize it's more of the agenda talking, but I'll still take the bait....

    Rodney Stuckey: +8 (The Pistons were outscored by 18 with Stuck on the bench)
    Richard Hamilton: -11
    Allen Iverson: -5

    or...

    Rodney Stuckey: 8 assists, 2 TOs
    Allen Iverson: 1 assist, 5 TOs (yes, him and Mr. Can't Dribble are the guys I want running the show)

    The Pistons were up 8 going into the 4th quarter when Rip was swapped in for Rodney. In 2 minutes 37 seconds, that great backcourt combo was outscored by 9 points with Lebron on the pine. Another example: Rip played the entire 2nd quarter (with AI playing all but 40 seconds) where the Pistons outscored the Cavs by 1 point total. Rodney was on the floor with them for 5:30 of that where the Pistons were +9. That means they were outscored by 8 without Rodney on the floor next to those 2.

    Rodney and Tay are the only solid guys we've got in the lineup night to night. Even on an off scoring game like tonight, Stuckey had a positive impact. I really do not think sending Rodney to the bench is a viable option.
  5. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Here is part of my writeup of the first Cleveland game:

    I am ecstatic. Great win. Great 2 of 3. We ended the longest going win streak in the West, then the East.


    Where to start. I am going to start with JMAX. He was as important to this win as anyone. He completely frustrated Cleveland's pick and roll game. I mean he just tore it up so bad Cleveland had to simply stop even trying. That is some seriously fantastic pick and roll D.


    Kwame started, and did fine in his 12 minutes on defense. One good score too, among several tries. But really, he did not fit this game much. Sheed can guard the big guy, and anyone pretty much can guard Ben. The game was won mostly with Sheed and JMAX paired up front in the 2nd half.


    Amir got some minutes, gave us a boost when he first entered the game, making some good plays on both sides of the floor.


    Stuckey had a lot of trouble playing D, but he also showed some versatility in being able to check Bron here and there. And then finally, he gave us some offense late in the game, with a couple of nice drives in and a made jumper. Quite timely. And he was part of the unit that played about the whole 4th quarter.


    Got to give a shout out to Curry here. What guts to stay with his bench guys rather than bring back in his starters. Way to reward great play. Gotta love it.


    Now, that unit: AI, Stuckey, running the point, Afflalo, playing solid, solid D and knocking down his shots. The play of the game involved him in the middle of it pushing the ball up for a JMAX ultra slam, JMAX, the perfect guy for this game, and Sheed.

    End of quote from previous post.

    So what happened between that game and this? Dyess is back. The most important guy in the last win, JMAX, just got to play 5 minutes. Dyess? By far the worst player in the game last night, a complete non-fit for this game. But Curry is addicted to playing Dyess. Its his security blanky.

    Kwame gave us 12 good solid minutes of D in the first game. Dyess is back, so Kwame does not play. Why would Kwame be better? Because Kwame is not paid by the other team to take those rediculous jump shots that Dyess takes. Further, Kwame is not Curry's security blanky, so he would only play the minutes appropriate for a 2nd big center. Remember, this is Cleveland. They start Ben Wallace. You don't need much to guard him. With Dyess being way overplayed, we spent most of the game giving up the inside, with no power forward to get over to challenge any plays. Sheed and Dyes, you can't fault them for this bad inside D - they are not power forwards, and simply can not move that quickly. Its just a matter of a coach not understanding what his players can, and can't do.

    And Afflalo, a very important part of our bench back then? Curry has reduced his role almost down to nothing. We had the same guards back in that first game as we have now.

    Finally, I don't know if anyone disagreed with me when I wrote last night's writeup, stating that JMAX and Afflalo should have been in there for the 4th quarter. Well, they played the whole 4th quarter in the last game, and rocked. And we won.
  6. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Two things I noticed...

    Rip did just as good a job on LBJ as Tay did. Somewhere there are probably player guarding stats that will prove me wrong, but it seemed like that watching the game.

    Towards the end, LBJ coming down on the left wing, Sheed the only guy back - Sheed takes a foul, LBJ scores, and I launch into my little "if-you're-going-to-foul-at-least-stop-the-basket" tirade to the cat, who has heard it all before. Then they showed the reply a couple of times, and Sheed actually delivered a good hard shot to LBJ's hand and ball, one that usually knocks the ball away for most other players. I guess Lebron is pretty strong after all.
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree. Rip was harrassing Lebron. If you're undersized, that's how you have to guard him. It looked annoying.
  8. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Usually he can do that for short periods against anyone before he picks up fouls and starts yelling at the refs, but yesterday he either managed not to foul or not to lose his cool.
  9. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Just for the record, for anyone who hasn't subscribed to the podcast (via iTunes or other), the new episode is up for listening.
  10. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    from espn's daily dime regarding this game:

    Plus-Minus: The Pistons' Backcourt
    Players +/-

    All 3 in game +10
    Stuckey and Iverson +1
    Stuckey and Hamilton -4
    Iverson and Hamilton -15
    Hamilton only -2
  11. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Hence, this team starting the game with "small ball" and getting out to big leads only to give them up when returning to a "big ball" lineup. People hated it, but it wasn't the problem.
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Show me a game against an opponent > .500 where small ball won it for us. Even MC has given up on it.

    Here's an example of one against a terrible opponent where we looked like fools. Thunder dominates Pistons' small lineup | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press
  13. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Show me a game against an opponent > .500 where big ball won it for us. We've even been beaten by small ball.

    That article makes great use of the rebounding of that game, but DET lost that game because they weren't defending, not because they were short. You wanna talk about beating >.500 teams?
    • We outrebounded NO 45-37 with "big ball" and lost.
    • We tied HOU in rebounding playing "big ball" started the game down 15-4 and LOST while they were playing "small ball."
    • We outrebounded TOR at home, but started the game down 10-2 and had to effectively shoot lights out (over 50% from the field) just to get a win AT HOME.
    • We played "big ball" against DAL, still got outrebounded at home, went down 63-51 at the half and got beat AT HOME.
    • We played "big ball" in POR, outrebounded the Blazers 40-28 and still lost.
    • We played "big ball" in UTAH and tied in rebounding and got our cakes handed to us by 17.
    You guys can scream all you want about small ball. It's just NOT the problem. We look like fools playing "big ball" against HOU, DAL, POR, and UTAH....but I don't see anybody pointing to the lack of defense and scoring with a big unit as a major problem that is taking us down the tubes and ruining the franchise.

    This team has other issues that that don't revolve around small ball. That's why they continue to win/lose regardless of what SIZE lineup is on the floor. Small ball is just an escape goat for this year. It's NOT the problem.
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'll give you 5 specific examples tonight.

    Providing more examples of games that we lost is not talking about beating > .500 teams.

    Small ball has been put in place primarily against terrible teams. MC absolutely loves small ball. Besides Nelly, MC is the biggest small ball fan on Earth. He would never have given up something so dear to his heart unless it absolutely sucked. He may not be a stats guy, but at some point in the past few weeks, his qualitative assessment told him that he'd probably lose his job before the all-star break if he kept matching Tay up against other teams' power forwards.
  15. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    One of the most common complaints during our championship year was too much "small ball".
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    1st, yes it is because those losses were against +.500 teams WITH "big ball" AND what it IS proving is that:
    1. Small ball is not causing us to lose any more than "big ball" is.
    2. One reason MC would have gone away from it is because of HIS BOSS who actually has the authority to tell him what to do. He is not autonomous. That actually would have more to do with which guys the boss wants to see on the floor as opposed to whether or not an inconsequential strategy was successful in a vacuum and...
    3. Regardless of what anyone thinks of "small ball" this team is not a contender. So what's the point of saying it hasn't beat many +.500 teams? Neither has "big ball," it's moot.
    So, again while some people seem to think I'm an advocate of small ball, the fact remains that small ball isn't why this team is struggling. It's akin to having a severed finger and complaining that you have a backache. Feel free to head to the chiropractor 1st.
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    In just looking at the examples you gave:

    DAl- SB was -17. BB was -4.
    Por- No small ball was played. Sheed was missing. We lost by 1 against a good team.
    Utah- SB -10, BB -7.

    Cleveland, Los Angeles, Denver, Orlando. Some of the best teams in the league have been beaten by our bigger, less talented lineups.
  18. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    That's true. You'd almost think LB didn't like Memo or Darko. But now we're discovering Joe doles out the minutes. It's no wonder Delfino got traded and Fabio isn't playing...name discrimination.
  19. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Exactly, small ball and big ball were BOTH minuses in the examples you gave based on my examples AND we LOST ALL THE GAMES.

    So in essence you're helping me prove my point. For every example one way, each of us counters with an example the other way. We win/lose just the same with or without small ball. Hence, it really doesn't matter...the problems lie elsewhere.

    It's as though you're trying to suggest that our season's woes are largely based on a rotation that was used for less than 25% of the games played. That just seems pointless and misplaced to me.
  20. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    I don't bait. It's beneath me. When Richard was out, the team locked into something and won seven straight. When he came back, whatever it was disappeared.

    For whatever reason, as soon as Richard and Allen were "separated," they finally started clicking on the floor together.

    If you don't see it, you don't see it.

    Rodney has developed into a player, but not the one that everyone is hyping him up to be. I don't see him as a PG and he's become feast or famine as far as I'm concerned. He hasn't been the same since the week of 40 and 38 and while the wins did cover it up, the losses have exposed it. Again.

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