Cavs being a bit "cavalier"

lol. I wonder why??????????????. hmmmmmm.

I think Lebron is a very good defensive player. He was among the leaders in steals per game (ranked #3) last year, ranked 2nd in steals overall and 12th in steals per 48 minutes. Probably the most important stat (if you're gonna start using them) is his efficiency rating where he seems to beat Wade from 28.24 to 23.17.

This using the formula:
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

But forget those facts...I remember watching his games. He's a freak of nature. He'd be on the sideline and read the offense, intercepting a pass near the three point. Wade is a great defensive player as well but he's not going to get any defensive player of the year considerations like Lebron is (and has received).

I give people their due. Wade is a terrific player but I put him in the same lines as guys like Steve Francis, or even Tracey McGrady. Its all hypothetical, we can't prove it but we can only have our points of views. Lebron will continue to grow and be better, the sky's the limit for him. Wade? He's already surpassed expectation, how do you know he won't hit his sophmore wall?

How about your rating of Wade and Lebron? How far apart would you put them? 95 and 94? If thats so then I'm oblivious to how that could possibly be. On athleticism alone, Lebron beats Wade.

This is the same Kobe Bryant that everyone calls the loner. Have you ever seen his "Beyond the Glory" video? The guy is no where near a good of a leader as Lebron or Wade. He was called the next Jordan of his time, but he failed because of his lack of leadership.

That's what MJ had, he was able to get into everyone's head and get them to play their best. I remember reading an article where MJ would have to hold Rodman with both hands on his cheeks and talk to him like a child. Can you picture Kobe doing that?

I don't question Wade's abilities as a leader, but to be honest everyone seems to overshadow the Shaq factor as well in the lockerroom last year. He called the shots, while Wade outplayed him. But you can't really compare apples and oranges now.

Wade was drafted fifth overall. That's a pretty high pick if you ask me. He was overshadowed by the big four before, sure, but if you're top 5 in my opinion: you're expected (by the media) to make an impact. The difference between you and I is, I got a feeling I hear more about Wade in the media than you probably do. His name is popping up more and more and people (here at least) are starting to talk about how great he is and how close he is to Lebron.

Wade's rookie season is what everyone is raving about the most, I think. But everyone here seems to forget: Who got rookie of the year that year?

That's right, Lebron.

He received 508 points, 78 first-place votes out of a possible 118. That's a landslide to me. If they were any where near remotely closer, then it would've been a little less one sided.

More jaw dropping stats?

Won all six Rookie of the Month awards for the Eastern Conference to join Carmello Anthony, San Antonio Spurs greats David Robinson (1989-90) and Tim Duncan (1997-98) as the only rookies in NBA history to receive Rookie of the Month honors every month of their inaugural season.

Finally, Lebron may not have to defer to Shaq, but you're treating it like it's such a bad thing to have a giant elephant down low. And besides, 83's a pretty good ranking if you ask me

One more thing: Micro. I don't like those 48 minute stats. When the players, so closely play the same amount of minutes and amount of games. Its not a question of 'what would happen if they played the same amount' whereas it's 'who's more durable and willing to play through pain.' (Both get thumbs up for that)

Yes but in this discussion we're talking about how much of a better player one is over another. Wade's done and accomplished more in the postseason, there's absolutely no way of arguing there but you can't just put a team of 12's success on 1 man.

But that's just the notion I'm trying to say though. Lebron's had some kind of medicore talent around him and he's made them a lot better. Boozer's fat contract is an example of it, what did he do last year? Nothing. What did he do when he was with Lebron? Became a center of attention and a 2nd option.

And I hate using stats to prove anything but I didn't bring it up first; you guys talk about winning games cause you can and I talk about winning awards cause I can. There's arguments on both sides for who's the better player.

While I say that Lebron couldn't have won games in the past because of the talent around him, you claim its because of him, and his character, that he underachieved and didn't make the playoffs. You may not directly say it but by saying Wade is better because of that; it completely throws away the first reason this discussion started in the first place. That Lebron is a better player skill-wise by a larger margin.

What would be the best scenario to prove the difference in skill? That's up to all the critics like you and I, who watch the game and say that Lebron is better. That's bar-none not disputed. How do you tell the difference is that big? When the argument for another player being better is that he wins and not by the way he plays.

And no matter what you say, steals does prove good defense. Saying it doesn't is like saying Ben's big blocks don't make a difference. Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, they're all astounding defenders because when they want that ball they get it. I think on the defensive side, Lebron is as good as Bryant is, maybe even better. And it racks up on the score sheet. Lebron hasn't 'shut down' any stars? He's given a lot of them hard times and he's had very hard match-ups (most likely the best). Plus being a focal point of the offense is also a disadvantage because everyone pays attention to what you do, while Wade's had the luxury of Shaq.

At the same time, how many stars do you see Wade shutting down? These guys aren't defensive specialist like Bowen. They can score too because they're all around amazing players.

If you wanna bring up the idea of leadership? The only way we can really compare that is not through winning of games, but by character. In times when a team is down and needs to be picked up, I've seen both men step up, equally. Maybe it was unfair for me to say that he wouldn't be able to make the Cavs successful neither because we would never know, but no one can denounce the fact that he's had a (proven) good team when he's needed it, revolved around him his whole NBA career. I really can't say that about Lebron because he hasn't been given that chance (which we've agreed on and have to wait to see).

Winning games is important, yes. Stats don't mean anything because you can pat them, yes. But when you're arguing a difference of 6 points between two different points of views out of a rating of 100, you're missing the point. I think Wade's 10% less better than Lebron on skill alone. Leadership the same, if not Lebron being better because as much as Wade's proven that he has leadership qualities, he'll never have the opportunity to really prove it was him 100% with Shaq on his team now.

What happens if Shaq retires and the team does significantly worse? Do you tie that to Wade's leadership or just chemestry issues? The NBA world is tied with 'what ifs' because these stories of these superstars are what we love to hear/see. What if Jordan never had Pippen? What if Jordan never won a ring because of that reason? Would he still not be glorified as the greatest player of all times cause he never won?

That's what's too bad for guys like Karl Malone, Dan Marino, Charles Barkley (or even in the future guys like Peyton Manning)...they were all amazing players but they never won the big one so they're overshadowed and forgotten, and the truth is most of the time its not all their fault. All they have are their amazing stats to tie to their amazing careers. Their teammates miss big shots...people get injured...coaches call the wrong plays.

Wade's never won the big one neither, so why does making the playoffs make any much more of a difference than winning the big one? If you're not first place, you're just the 2nd loser. All these guys are leaders, there's no mistaking that. But saying one person is better than the other because they never made it is just hindsight for the real truth. This is entertainment, and when I watch Lebron...its definately more of a treat then watching Wade.

Well Micro...there's no one else here that really says Wade is a better player than Lebron, they're just stating that Wade has accomplished more and isn't as far off in his ability as I stated earlier.

But again, in almost every one of my post I keep saying:

*shrug* I'm moving on from that topic now. There's nothing that can really change my mind about Wade now because I've seen the kid do almost everything but win the big one. In my mind, he is and always will be a great player BUT - well, you know what I'm leaning towards. I won't say it again.

As for Boozer - being the focus of the offense and only raising your points per game up 2? Losing your defensive side with the ever slight slide in rebounds, blocks and steals? The increase in turnovers? Not a successful switch in my opinion. Blah I hate talking about stats though. Boozer was the talk of the free agency town when he was out there, now he's a dudd.

And I still think the 2003-2004 Heat roster was filled with talented guys, they just needed the right guy to set them off. You agree with this - then you state that Lebron had that one big Iggy all-star center?

Sorry I'd rather take the whole 2003-2004 Heat roster over Iggy by himself.

Hey I never take anything personally

Definately a good debate and good arguments on both sides for sure.

Funny little discussion y'all have going on here. But I have to say this.......Trade Wade for James str8 up and you get similiar results with both franchises. As rookies I think LeBron would have taken that Miami team just as far as Wade did, no matter what Mia was not beating Indy. I do think that Lebron on last years Mia team, walks home with a ring. No way to prove it's all just opinion.

Best part of all this is that we are fortunate to watch 2 young, gifted, humble players, that respect the game, and carry themselves well on and off the court develop and compete for the next few years. Add Amare and Dwight Howard to that mix and the NBA is A-OK 2Me.

Amare is a bit of a pompeous-egotistical ass from what I hear.

But so am I sometimes ;)

i have absolutely nothing to contribute to this discussion except that there's no A in definitely, and when say most <format of dominate>, you use dominant, not dominate.

har!! sorry it's friday i couldn't think of anything else except to be an ass :D

sorry my sis teaches english and it wears off :D

on-topic, i think lebron is better than wade...or something.