Brandon Knight bust potential..?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's like the monkeys writing Shakespeare - if we try to fit Stuckey in enough systems he will eventually play like an all-star.
  2. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    But KGREG.. you are naming the TOP best PG of the last years.

    Lilliard and Irving are better players thank Knight.
    But don't forget that Damien Lillard spent 4 seasons in the NCAA before going to the NBA.

    To THIS Day, Brandon Knight has never played 2 years in a row with the same teammates.
    And let me remind you that last year was a short season.

    Yes, Irving is better, yes, Rondo and Lillard too.

    But, so what? Are we going to compare all our rookies or sophomores to the TOP OF THE CREAM?

    "Hey, Monroe sucks, look at Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin, they are BALLERS!"
    (For the record, I f***ing love Monroe)

    If we are grading players from 1 to 10.. yo might say that Rondo and Irving are a 9 or 10 in today's NBA... then you can have a good point saying Lillard is there too (only played 8 games in the Season but, nevermind)

    Knight it's not a 10 or a 9.. I think we ALL know that.
    At least he is not a 10 or a 9 right now. Will he get to that level some day? .. I don't know, I can't tell and NEITHER DO YOU.
    You can argue if you see potential in him, but you can never be 100% sure.

    Knight have a lot of things good. He is a hard worker kid, a no-trouble guy, like I said, he listen to his coach (not like Rondo who everybody say that he is not a good teammate).

    I get that when you see Irving you see a better player, already stablished in the league, and you can see the same with Lillard in a few months. And you can't see that from Knight.

    But you can't forget that those kind of players, the Lillard, Rondo, Irving.. are not able to get via trade.

    You get those players to your team by:

    1- Drafting them
    2- IF the player wants to go to your team (Chris Paul-like)

    Yes, I know Rondo was traded from PHX to BOS.. but because in Phoenix he didn't do nothing.. just like Chauncey in the teams before Detroit.

    Today.. this season, this far, I don't want to see another player in our roster playing Point Guard other than Knight. I don't want to see Bynum, a man who tries an EASY LAY-UP when JaVale McGee is in the court.

    I don't want to see Stuckey hitting that wall again.

    I want the ball in Knight's hands. I want that kid to make mistakes. To take bad shots selections. To shoot 2-12 like the other night. To get in foul trouble for trying to hard in defense.

    I want that. Why?

    Because in 2 years from now, if Knight doesn't show the progress that he is meant to show (Not talking Westbrook kind of player, but a guy who can average 16 points and more than 7, 8 assists.)

    If Knight doesn't show that, then I'll be the first claiming for a trade to get him out of here.
    Believe me, I don't fall in love with any player at a long term. I keep my head in the ground and compare progressions with other similar players. But when you pick Irving and Lillard to make comparisions to Knight... those are wrong comparisions.

    Good comparissions are Kemba Walker (who is having a good year, thus far), Jeff Teague, Ty Lawson, Darren Collison.

    And I believe Knight will be better than those guys.. (key word, believe)
    basketbills, coynejeremy and round like this.
  3. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    The only way Knight would hinder the team is if he never developed and we passed on a great prospect while waiting. It hasn't happened yet. if we had the #5 pick we still would have picked Drummond.
  4. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    SJ, you make great points. However, what KGREG is trying to say is that because of all that untapped potential and unknown ceiling, Knight's trade value is quite high right now. If we wait until he doesn't show progress, then his trade value would have greatly diminished. So, if the right deal comes along, there should be no hesitation in pulling the trigger on a trade where Knight is a piece. I don't think he was advocating sending away Knight at all costs.

    I'm of the opinion that KGREG is a tad pessimistic about the future of Knight, but I personally see him as a 6th man of the year type player. The ideal situation for us would be a trade (or series of trades) that result in us sending away Stuckey & Bynum, landing a stud PG, and moving Knight to be the first guard off the bench.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    There is a reason that his untapped potential and unknown ceiling creates a high trade value... because there is a certain probability that it will payoff. If any team should have the need to gamble on that, it's this one.
    alexa032, S.J. and coynejeremy like this.
  6. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    My point exactly. I see knight as a way of getting rid of BoT and/or Stuckey AND getting someone good in return. My point is that Knight is not the kind of player where you say, "This kid is a stud, he's untouchable". When I look at his ceiling, I see a solid off the bench PG, but RIGHT NOW you can make a fool out of another GM because they ALWAYS fall for the "young potential". Knight is showing me less as a PG than what Afflalo showed as a 2nd yr SG and JOE GAVE HIM AWAY FOR NOTHING!
  7. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    It will take more than a pretty decent rookie contract to get rid of those two, I hope you realise that.

    The real issue is, who do we get in return? Because I won't take Bynum as our starting PG. Knight is actually decent. Sure, he isn't Irving, but he is decent on a team which stinks a lot of the time. I actually think his ceiling is quite high, and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with another Chauncy Billups, maybe as soon as the end of this year.
    S.J. likes this.
  8. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    If Memphis was in a salary dump mode, we could make a move for Mike Conley.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the Bucks would entertain a S&T deal for Brandon Jennings where they get CV back for another contract year along with Stuck or Knight. That (CV in a contract year) has worked well for them in the past.


    Those are the first two that comes to mind. I'm not saying we'd be better off with those guys. Simply outlining some possibilities.
  9. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    A 20ppg scorer who can play a little defense and/or rebound.

    I don't think many of you actually saw Chauncy play early in his career. He was pretty good, he just needed to be given the right opportunity and he was always the filler in a trade. Chuancy ALWAYS had legit game! Knight on the other hand..........
  10. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    A 20 points per game scorer ???

    Let's see which players are until THIS MOMENT in NBA.COM in scoring leaders with 19 points per game OR more.

    (without any order)
    Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Wade, Kyrie Irving, Durant, James Harden, Monta Ellis, Westbrook, Aldridge, Bosh, Pierce, Howard...

    I think that ALL those players won't be traded... and even less if you offer them "Knight + Stuckey + CV"

    The only players above 19 ppg and, from my point of view, tradeable, are:

    Rudy Gay
    Jamaal Crawford
    Kemba Walker
    O.J. Mayo
    Luol Deng

    I'm not pretty sure about Walker and Mayo but anyways.. This are the guys that I think that if a good offer knocks the door, those teams will trade away those players.

    But that doesn't mean that they will do it for "Knight + Stuckey + CV"

    Clippers have Paul, Mavs have Collison, Memphis have Conley, Bulls have Rose and I don't know if the Bobcats will give it.

    Hell, I don't want Walker man.. I think Knight will be better.

    KGREG, I did this to show you that you are really watching a different league if you think that we can get a 20 ppg scorer giving only Knight + Stuckey + CV ...


    Knight needs to be given the right teammates... AND some time. You'll see KGREG.. You'll see.
    When I see him in the court a see him giving everything he has.. I don't ever saw him lazy or something.. He is trying hard man.. And he will get awarded.
    The Panda likes this.
  11. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    I am sorry. This maturation process will not work, except for those fantasy dreams on a Skinner's template; that is a blank slate ready for the morning's news, interpreted from the hinterlands of yesterday. In short, let others do the necessary development of dreams and think not of spontaneous eruptions. In a shorter-short: get back in with perceptive trades. Gores will take a big hit this year. No matter, as long as it leads to a solid future setting certain standards. Case in point: go all out and begin with signing Paul Millsap. With this, are you not telling someone, somewhere...something?
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Here is a per/36 min comparison between Knight so far in his career (66 games last year + 9 games this year) vs Chauncey in his rookie season. The pro rating to minutes played benefits Billups since he only averaged 27.7 mpg vs Knight at 32.3 mpg. Billups started 70 out of 80 games played that year. Knight has started in 69 out of 75 games played in his career so far... so this is a great comp set to use.

    Stat: Knight/ Billups
    Pts: 14.1/ 11.2
    eFG%: .480/ .445
    Reb: 3.7/ 3.1
    Ast: 4.6/ 5.1
    Stl: 0.8/ 1.7
    Blk: 0.2/ .01
    Tov: 3.0/ 2.8

    Records: 26-49/ 28-52 (if the Pistons to 2-3 in the next 5 games, Knight will have the same exact W-L start that Chauncey had in his career with about the same level of starts and a few more minutes).

    Extremely close comparison at this point in each of their careers. With Knight averaging 7.2 ast/36 so far this year, he's showing a dimension that Chauncey didn't show until the 2005/06 season when he was 29 years old.

    A similarity is that they are both good 3-point shooters. Chauncey attempted 5.3 per 36 his rookie year and converted at .329. Knight attempts 4.7 per 36 and converts at .380.

    Knight is 2 years younger in this comparison with obviously less college experience.
  13. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    And who do you suggest - without giving up all of our assets. As another member has covered, these are quite rare, and will take a lot of assets to pry away.

    Look man, I know I am going to sound aggressive here, but it needs to be said.

    You are way to down on Knight. The guy is so young, has so little experience, but has already shown that he can compete. He has clearly been working on many facets of his game. Is he a top 10 guard? No. But I'd love for you to name me 3 top 10 guards with less than 4 years experience. The facts simply don't back your case in any way.

    So far as I can see, if we are going to reboot this team completely, there are only a few pieces we need to keep. Pretty much what I want to see as our starting lineup
    1 - Greg Monroe
    2 - Andre Drummond
    3 - Brandon Knight
    4 - Kim English
    5 - Kyle Singler

    Everything else is negotiable. Its like a sale at Bing Lee. But if you take Knight out of there, we are going to have to overpay to get production out of the PG - money which would be far better used acquiring a wing and getting some bench production. This team will not be built to compete with OKC/MIA/LAL until 2014-15 at best.

    There is no good reason to trade BK. Sure, we might be able to get a small upgrade, but in reality, we would only be packaging him to try and get rid of the worst players on our team. At the end of this year we have $23 million in cap space when we lose Maxiell, Maggette and Rip Hamiltons hangover. Yeah, we could put an offer in for Chris Paul with that money. I'd be happy to trade BK after that.
  14. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    And you guys are guilty of what most of us are guilty of every year, we OVER VALUE our young players. Guys like Amir Johnson, Carlos Delfino, Dejuan Summers etc etc etc were revered as rookies and 2nd year players in this forum when actually they're marginal players who come a dime dozen. I put Knight in that same category. Joe has a habit of holding on to these "Dime a Dozen" players until they're only worth a nickel. Sorry, but the kid ain't special, and eventually he'll fall into the category of the Jarret Jacks of the world. I'm not clamoring for him to go for the same reason that I want Prince, BoT and Stuckey gone, I'm saying that this kid (as of today) is a VERY attractive trade piece because many GM's will look at his draft position, stats and age and bet on potential, history usually shows that potential is rarely realized. And when a team is this bad and in desperate need of talent at EVERY position, I don't care if Will has to run the point until we find Knight's replacement if we can get back legit TALENT!
  15. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    Yes.. but the thing is... you WON'T get "legit talent" for giving up Knight + Stuckey + CV..

    You won't get a young player, at least, not any younger of 26-27 years old.

    You won't get a franchise player in that way. Sorry..
  16. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm not convinced that Brandon Knight won't end up much being much better than Chauncey Billups.
    That being said, I'd trade any player on this team if the right deal presented itself.
  17. S.J.

    S.J. All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ball, I think we all do.. If somehow Boston wants to offer us Rondo for Knight + Stuckey + CV I would do it... the same for Chris Paul, Irving, and any young PG.

    But the thing is.. THAT is not going to happen.
  18. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I fall on the "no need to trade Brandon Knight" side of the fence but KGREG makes some good points.
    - We the fans (and unfortunately Joe) overvalue our young players: this is more applicable to 2nd round guys like the players that KGREG mentioned but has also been done with 1st rounders like Stuckey & Austin Daye. ...For the record, I don't share KGREG's opinion that BK is "overvalued" right now. I don't think he's a bust.

    - BK IS indeed a very attractive trade piece for some teams based on his potential. I'm not saying trade him but nobody on the current roster (including Monroe, & Drummond) should be a sacred cow. Joe should have an open mind and no matter how creative and out of the box a roster idea might be, nothing should be off the table.

    In the past, Joe has held onto guys that he shouldn't have held onto. Whether it's loyalty to his draft picks or just bad decision making, he's done it. The one time that he DIDN'T do it, it ended up biting him in the butt (Arron Afflalo), so I get whay he might be reluctant to part with his youngsters. Stuckey should have been swapped to another team two years ago when his value was highest. We could have got something pretty decent for Austin Daye if the effort would have been made.

    Brandon Knight is a lotto pick and I don't view him in the same light as these other guys. Based on his attitude, effort and intelligence; I'm willing to take a risk on him that I would not have taken with Stuckey & Daye. I don't think that hanging onto a guy with as much upside as BK has makes Joe a hoarder.

    ...RE-signing Prince & Stuckey makes Joe a hoarder.
  19. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I would bet that Knight reaches his potential. Whatever that is. His improvement has been focused and tangible. You don't see that a lot. Usually its circumstance. You rarely see a guy give you all he's got then in one off season, come back a shore up major holes in his game. Hell if Stuckey did that just one time, we'd be undefeated this year. Knight has made key passes he wouldn't have seen last year. He's handling the pacing and the generalship. Because of his personality, I think he'll absorb a ton this season and show marked improvement by the end. He has problem turning the corner on his defender and that may never change but he works well without the ball. However, Joe keeps adding facilitators to the team, Prince, Monroe, Singler, and even Stuckey can make good decisions when Knight is moving without the ball.

    Elite talent? Maybe not. But seeing what Houston gave up for Harden. Man. How do you get elite talent that isn't a huge malcontent.
  20. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Knight's great at handling the ball when it's between his legs. It's dribbling the ball in front of him where he has trouble.
    Ernie the Slow Adult and KGREG like this.

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